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Post by amelia on Jan 16, 2009 19:07:43 GMT 1
Catrin - love the scientific approach - don't suppose you (or anyone else) have any knowledge of how to do the 'apply significance test to data'?! I have some data that I have collected from my MSc study on the Equine Touch technique, but not a clue of how to make anything of it - was thinking of looking for an online stats company! Sue I did stats at uni for my scientific studies - I can dig out my old notes and give it a shot if you like?
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Post by wendyihts on Jan 20, 2009 1:52:58 GMT 1
What does the Dually do that is different from anything else? e.g. less likely to cause rearing because pressure is over nose rather than around poll? (though immediately, I can see some ethical issues from testing that).
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Post by fowlerv on Jan 20, 2009 22:06:21 GMT 1
Hi All
As one of the scientists conducting the study I have tried to explain a few things:
The longlining/lunging/looseschooling (whichever we do) is purely an exercise test/control (not traditional v IH) to show the difference between join-up and an alternative at a similar exercise intensity. It is a means to move a horse around without using IH body language. The obstacle course is the test to evaluate the differences within and between the two groups and horses are assessed before and after. Personality assessment is also done prior to study so that this can be correlated to the horses performance in the obstacle test. A third group whereby you would do no 'treatment' is desired but as always there are never enough horses and the most important comparison from a scientific point of view is the exercise control.
This study has been planned by myself and world expert scientists in equine physiology and behaviour in order to (hopefully-wouldn't want to preempt the results) promote Join-up and IH methods and to put to bed theories that Join-up compromises the horses welfare by inducing a fear response!
If you would like anymore info please contact me:
Dr Veronica Fowler
veronica.fowler@bbsrc.ac.uk
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laura
Grand Prix Poster
going for a splash
Posts: 3,867
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Post by laura on Jan 22, 2009 21:19:20 GMT 1
my thoughts ..... if it is not a study on IH vs "traditional" or anything else and you are trying to prove that join up is not the "chasing a horse in a circle till it it exhausted" as stated by some critics then it must just be join up vs nothing ( or chasing horse around) before you do the obstacle course. So ..... do join up where the body language and turns are utilised ... till the "ask" with a qualified join up personage doing it ..... then an unqualified chasing horse around till they think its ready to listen ! then do the course. NO that is not a serious suggestion of course , that would be unethical It is sort of like 2 questions... ..... is join up just stressing / exhausting the horse so it complies ? ..... is join up more effective in endearing trust so it is less stressed in a test such as the obstacle course.? Perhaps the testing is really in two parts: Horses heart rates are monitored in join up where they have the opportunity to come in when they ask. Certain limit of say 20 mins. another goup is monitored for the same 20 mins where requests to come in are ignored ... they are not exhausted but no more stressed than thousands horses already are in UK imo longlining as a "control group" or a comparison may not be valid as some horse are used to things around their bodies whereas others might panic ! possible other group does nothing before the obstacle course Compare heart rates and evaluate whether horses are as stressed by join up as critics suggest ? ******************** horses from both groups do the obstacle course at a set time after and heart rates monitored. evaluation ............. do the horses from the joins up suffer less stress in this new activity when asked to do simple things as well as "scary " things ....... would have to ascertain that at leat ONE test had not been encountered by any horse as there are wide variations in what youngsters education involves well that me thoughts at the mo
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Post by heather on Jan 26, 2009 10:24:04 GMT 1
Veronica, thanks for this clarification. I was hoping that the point of this, was to prove that join-up does not cause the horse to 'give up'- ie, induce so much fear, that he is ready to die, as has been suggested.
As a classical trainer, join up will never replace lunging for me, as a training method to strengthen muscles and joints, teach transitions, changes of rein etc, which my horses will all eventually do at liberty too. But for instance, with so called 'difficult' horses that we sometimes take on, join-up has been a very successful way to get them quickly to want to be with me. I never ever chase the horse around more than I would do in a lunging capacity, so that the horse does not get wound up, but eventually gets tired of going round in circles and wants to come and be with me!
I think like many things, it is knowing when to put pressure on, and how much, and when to stop, all about timing, in other words.
So I am very interested to see the outcome, as I do not feel I have ever put any horse who comes here, into a fear zone, never mind one where they would want to give up the ghost! This is precisely why I turned to IH for 'natural horsemanship' methods to supplement my own classical ones. There is actually far less danger, to my mind, of less experienced horsemen and women turning their horses into mindless zombies, as I have seen happen with some other NH methods.
Kelly is always the voice of reason in the NH world, and I welcome further evidence that these methods, when correctly applied, do not stress the horse, just as I am certain that lunging does not cause mental/emotional stress either, but again, when correctly carried out. I have seen some horses being whipped round on the lunge, in tight side reins, and abroad, often with overhead check reins, which I will bet, if tested the horses would be very stressed indeed, just as if someone chased a horse relentlessly around a round pen in panic/flight mode, then it would also surely show signs of stress?
As with everything, for me, it is in the skill of the handler at reading the body language, the eye, the general demeanour of the horse, and getting just the right levels of response.
Heather
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Post by Catrin on Jan 26, 2009 12:31:31 GMT 1
Catrin - love the scientific approach - don't suppose you (or anyone else) have any knowledge of how to do the 'apply significance test to data'?! I have some data that I have collected from my MSc study on the Equine Touch technique, but not a clue of how to make anything of it - was thinking of looking for an online stats company! Sue In theory Sue, I do. Many years ago when I was not much more that a child, I did a whole university course on 'Statistics and Psychology.' Even up to last year, I taught A' level Statistics. Unfortunately I gave my 'really good stats' book to my son when he was at Uni twenty years ago, but do have some A level books still. If you email me a sample, I'll see if I can match it to a suitable test. PS sorry I didn't look back in here until now Catrin@talkinghorse.co.uk
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