varkie
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Post by varkie on Dec 7, 2008 23:40:58 GMT 1
Long lining should rarely if ever be done off the bit Loza.
I use a Dually or normal head collar and will only ever clip on to the bit with a horse who I am backing -just to get him used to a light contact - and only once the horse is established in his long lining. Not sure I quite agree with this. By all means, novice handlers/long reiners would do better to stick to using a headcollar than a bit - tho the headcollar is a rather blunt instrument, and not as clear as it could be for a young horse to learn signals from. But the real long reining masters do tend to use a bit for long reining when they are asking for real, proper work. My established long reining mare is always long reined off a bit.
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Post by Zoe RA on Dec 7, 2008 23:49:06 GMT 1
I think that there is a distinction to be made here between Long Lining and Long Reining Varkie. I would regard what you are talking about as Long Reining, not Long Lining
I think of the exercises when one is up close and personal and doing complex exercises as being Long Reining, as opposed to being at a distance, at the end of the lines, and doing less complex work, as being Long Lining.
But that definition is open to interpretation!
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varkie
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Post by varkie on Dec 8, 2008 0:03:58 GMT 1
Not sure about that definition. Looking at all my training texts, if you look up long reining, it says also called long lining. If you look up long lining, it says also called long reining. Where did you get that definition from?
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Post by Zoe RA on Dec 8, 2008 10:36:13 GMT 1
Where did I get that definition from? I have no idea Varkie ;D
But it is a very logical one, and if it isn't in general use then maybe it should be? Then maybe some confusion could be avoided?
I'm a great believer in trying to communicate as precisely as possible, and with the definitions I have offered it would be much more clear what is being discussed
Loza, I hope we will see you continuing to post on the board All constructive discussion is useful, and it helps us all to formulate ideas for the good of the horse
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lovelylace
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Post by lovelylace on Dec 8, 2008 13:09:27 GMT 1
Just going back to op's original question..
a 2.5 year old tb in my opinion can get "started" a bit and very slowly...very good to get some more experienced help of course but there are things she can start on her own...why not start having the horse in a head collar and one lunge line attached to it so she doesent get too muddled up to beging with then start leading the horse in straight lines and practise som e voice sommands to start with, whoa for slowing down , stand , walk on and trot on are all good things for a 2.5 year old to learn, you can start on straight lines as not to put strain and you just run along side...as the horse become more obidient you can put mor distance between you and the horse..and when training the stand command you can move away on the horse and see if it has learnt to obey your command...
you can also include some coloured poles on the ground scattered about so that the horse gets used to those as well...keep sessions short and give time off in between so that the horse can process the new things...In my opinion a 2.5 year old also can be intruduced to bit and a roller again take it easy, read up as much as you can and dont be afraid to ask if in any doubts...Backing a horse is not alwasy as complicated as some people make out but of course experience and knowledge is required. also added to say go out and walk the horse in hand lots, and not just on roads try to really go off road, brilliant for balance and general fitness, horses need to move and alot of the problems that we see today is that many young horses spend far to little time moving and just out for limited periods and in rather flat and uniteresting paddocks, horses should move over varied terrain and preferable with some hills thrown in as well.
good luck and have fun!
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Post by SarahW on Dec 8, 2008 13:40:42 GMT 1
The problem for all of us is that we can only get to look at the outside of the horse unless we go for expensive scans - and I believe that some racehorse yards do - we tend to judge when a horse is ready to be started by how mature and well he looks on the outside but do we know whether that corelates to what is happening on the inside? What Dr Deb has done is tell us what is probably going on on the inside at a given time so that we can know what the risks are. Even then, we might not know whether a horse has been nutritionally deprived at any stage.
I generally wait until a horse if four before starting it but some of the best starters we have had have been six. It's fabulous to work with horses that are both mentally and physically mature - although we have met one that was very set in his ways and didn't think this working mullarkey was a good idea. We gave him the benefit of the doubt as we always do and got him checked out by a physio - he was chronically sore.
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lovelylace
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Post by lovelylace on Dec 8, 2008 14:29:21 GMT 1
I think in race horse yards it is about money, those tb's are expensive to breed and keep so owners want to se return of their money quickly. all mine and my mums horses have been sat in a three, and turned away to mature over the summer and in the winter the year they turn four have been more propery started their education, keeping work on straight lines mostly and out and about in the forest to get them to think forwards and to strengthen their bodies, in a purposeful outline and not on the forehand. we have never had anu mental problems, not any problems with hocks or tendons..hovewer, my old mare that I backed at 16 after a very unactive younger life have had problems with suspensory ligaments, back and hocks and her basic heart and lung capacity will never be the same as of a horse that have had an active younger life..my vet said that her body just havent been " hardened" up by being active in her younger years...a little bit like humans, an active young kid that plays football and uses its body will be healthier and stronger than one that are kept mostly indoors and dont get too much exercise... I think it is hard to really see evidence that we should all wait to 6 before backing our horses as not an awful lot of horses are being backed at that age and also the ones who do dont tend to have horses that are being used in more demanding disciplines..a horse that are backed at six and then have a life of mostly hacking and the odd rc compers is probably going to have less wear and tear than a horse that was backed at 3-4 and does advanced level eventing..but that horse would have more wear and tear even if it was backed at 6, if you do want to compete and get to a fairly advanced level I think that getting the horses body strong and healthy by an active younger life is very important.. also a lot of the problems we see today with mainly the wb's I think has to do with very hard breeding and many times not enough new blood being introduced, then you have the fact that alot of horses in belgium, holland and even germany and sweden have less turnout and therefor you have horses that are stabled more and NOT getting a chance to strenghten their boidies...anyway sorry for ramblings
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sixfootblonde
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Post by sixfootblonde on Dec 8, 2008 19:11:38 GMT 1
My understanding is that although horses are indeed individuals, the skeletal maturation is around the same for all horses, regardless of breed. 'J' it does sound like you get alot right! I think it is about taking a sensible attitude towards training, and having had my last horse started at 5 - would concur with SarahW. He was fantastically balanced physically and mentally.
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sazjayp
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Post by sazjayp on Dec 8, 2008 21:30:13 GMT 1
I am of the opinion that both lunging and long lining can be of benefit in certain situations - however, I much prefer long lining as it mimics the 'feel' that your horse will get when being ridden in a far more proficient way than lunging ever can. I would also add that a lot people - still! - use lunging to take the 'fizz' out of horses before riding them, and send them round and round in circles...I have witnessed this on a number of yards. However, there are many enlightened people that understand lunging can be of benefit in certain situations - rehablitation for example, and also I have previously had lunge lessons without reins and stirrups to work on my positioning. It's the uneducated ones that have people up in arms about lunging - too much of anything is a bad thing, and working a horse that isn't developed - physically or mentally - in a way that is known to cause stresses on certain joints and muscles is asking for trouble.
However, with my youngster I will not lunge him - I will longline him when I get to that stage in his training. He has had a roller on and is used to ropes being 'draped' around his back end and has gotten over the scary 'snake' phase and has been led around with a longline attached and dragging on the floor behind him.
There is so much that your friend can do to work with her youngsters. I found it useful to write down my goal - i.e. get Leo longlining - and then break that goal down in stages - what did I need to do to get to that goal...your friend will be amazed at how many 'building blocks' she will need to have in place before reaching that goal - and that is what takes time and patience - but it's fun and rewarding and needs to be done slowly. So even though Leo and I have never longlined, he has the basics in place so that when we decide to do this, it will make the job a heck of lot easier and less stressful for him.
I would recommend reading a couple of books about training young horses - I got a heck of a lot of info from these, and went on a perfect manners and spookbusting weekend with Sue Brown and Sandra Williams which was excellent - that will give your friend plenty to be working with without putting pressure on herself to rush things! All sorts can be done - my lad is happy to be rubbed all over with a plastic bag, have an umbrella opened next to him, have a big rattle shaken next to him, walk over poles, backing up, standing still etc.
Best of luck to your friend with her horses xx
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jackie
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Post by jackie on Jan 4, 2009 18:29:30 GMT 1
Thank you all for your responses they have been of great help to both me and my friend, I have not been able to get back to you sooner because of a technical problem with the Lap- top!!!!
My friend has decided to sell one of her youngsters and her daughter is having the other, however my sister and I are going to hopefully get Zoe down to us and give us advice for our babies.
I recently got given a lovely unbroken TB from a racing yard that was no good because of Stifle problems he was born with, he is 2 in May but very nervous at times even though he has settled in well.
Thanks again
Jackie xx
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Post by lilaclomax on Jan 4, 2009 18:37:29 GMT 1
Jackie, hopefully she finds great homes for them. I would also recommend an RA to come out at various intervals during starting a youngster as they see things that we overlook and can help makes things so much easier! I have a youngster who is almost 4, he is going to be used this summer as a lead rein pony for my 5 year old daughter which will teach both of them whilst not causing any long term damage as she weighs next to nothing and the sessions will be short walks out and about. It has worked out perfectly all round for us and hopefully she will be enjoying much more with him in a couple of years when they are both ready
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