Treeless saddles?? opinions needed :)

[jadehollinshead]

marleys looking for a saddle, ive been reading up about treeless saddles... as he is hard to fit to and i personally prefer the sound of them?

if anyones got one, what do you think of them? have you noticed any benefits?

just a query really

[marvin]

I have one and would not use a treed saddle again I do not think. I have had mine for about 5 yrs and have never had an issue with it. My horse moves really well in it, and he changes shape over summer and winter and the saddle just goes with him. Mine is a fitform, much like a torsion, I prefer the leg position on them as I injured my hip many yrs ago and the longer straighter leg position is much more suitable for me now..
There are many models to choose from, a problem mentioned before was the clearence over the back and the way the stirrups are attached, this has been attended to on some of the different models now. Do a search there are many posts about treeless saddles and the benefits or downsides to different models.

[horsey123]

i have about 4 hehe

i have my bare foot london (treeless dressage) and bare foot cherokee (s.p)i love then i used to use it for schooling london for befor i got the HM saddle and i just then cherokee for backing and riding any of the rehab horses i get

heather moffett vouge dressage (treeless well soft tree) i would ever buy a differnt saddle again theses are the only saddles and the barefoot saddle that i would ever put o my horses backs

my horses back now have o muscle wastage no sharke fin withers and very sound backs there strids have mproved as there shoulders arnt being blocked and the movement in there backs are not being blocked

i can feel everything that my horse is doing under me as he moves witch i find hard to feel in treed saddles

TBH i would never put a treed saddle neer my horse again

[Azrael]

I've had a Freeform, SBS and Fhoenix and have tried a Dartmoor Treefree and Barefoot Cheyenne. I quite like the SBS apart from it slips a bit too easily so don't trust it for fast work when madam is likely to get a bit bouncy and silly. Freeform was ok but little things I didn't like, it was an older one and I think they've already improved on everything i didn't like about it, pretty nice saddle overall but prefer a treed saddle really. Treefree and Barefoot ok but very wide to sit on, made already wide coblet feel even wider than she does bareback. I liked the Fhoenix but it made my coblet very sore very quickly and faffing about with padding didn't help at all, would never have one again.

Overall I prefer a well fitted treed saddle for most things and would only use a treeless on a horse that was really awkward to fit or had saddle issues that could be helped by having something that feels totally different for a while.

[dillypony]

When I used one it crippled my hips. They can also cause pressure under the stirrup bars and on the spine. I have seen horses with muscle wastage under the riders seat, I also have seen 6 horses ridden in a treeless saddle for years, they had the first treeless saddles in the UK, all the horses had the same very dipped back they were different breeds and fit, I could only put the very poor back shape down to the saddle putting too much weight in the center of the horses back. The SMS has done pressure testing on treeless saddles and they came out very badly, the treeless saddle makers say that this dose not count as the SMS are not trained to fit them!!! but treeless seem to be sold as the answer to every thing for untrained owners to fit, sorry this is my pet hate LOL. Not to mention the riders who fall off the treeless saddle due to instability. Try taking a picture of your horse with you sat on it bare back from the side then take one of it with a well fitting tradition saddle and see how much the back shape dips without a treed saddle to distribute the weight. Or try sitting on you hands and feel how sharp your seat bones are, you are talking about even a light rider of 8 stone putting all than weight through a tiny area, your seat bones onto the horses back.

[l17]

I have a freeform SB and I have been riding my pony in it for 2 years. To start with he went really well in it and his back muscles improved. I love the quality of the saddle, but it has no knee rolls and it tends to follow the downhill shape of my pony and pitch me forwards. I think we have out grown it now as I really want the stability of a treed saddle and my pony doesn't seem as happy with the treeless as he used to be. I have just ordered a made to measure ideal and I am really excited about it! I will keep my freeform for now as I still think they have their uses. I would say keep an open mind and listen to your horses reactions. Lx

[Louise]

I think it is important to note that not all treeless saddles are the same! So, you really cannot lump them all in to the same category, as there are some fantastic ones (if fitted correctly) and some truly shocking ones out there, just as there are treed saddles.

Dillypony is correct I am sure that there are issues with some of the treeless designs - I have researched them for quite a while - but this really isn't the case for all of them as there are so many different types out there now. As for the SMS pressure testing (which I think Heather knows a lot more about in detail, so I am sure she will respond at some point), I am not sure which saddles they tested and how they were fitted etc, but as far as I am aware it was generally believed that it was not sufficient to be taken as conclusive evidence of all treeless saddles. I know Heather herself has used the Pliance Pressure testing to test her saddles as well as others and this came out in favour of some of the treeless designs.

There are only a few treeless saddles that I really think are excellent so far (although there a few newer ones that I haven't researched enough to comment on yet), but there are just so many variables that need to be considered it is impossible to say whether in general, treed or treeless is better. There is absolutely nothing wrong with treed saddles, in my opinion, provided that they fit correctly, but unfortunately I don't often see well fitting treed saddles, for various reasons including the fact that horses change shape so often, some of the treed saddles have asymmetries, sometimes it is a bad saddler, etc etc. However, I also see some damage from some makes of treeless saddles (not necessarily because the make is a bad design, but often because it is not fitted correctly or it just doesn't suit the horse/rider).

So, I think the question really should be whether treed or treeless would be better for both you and your horse, and then which design of treed or treeless is better for you both. I have 2 horses, one of which I could 'get away with' riding in most well made treeless saddles without causing any major issues, although I have had slippage problems with some I have tried - I would be very unlikely to ever ride her in a treed saddle again as she just doesn't suit them. She goes the best in her Fhoenix and we don't have any stability issues. The other of mine has obviously had badly fitting saddles in the past, very high withers, a bit of a sway back and I have only found one saddle that I would be happy to ride her in - so much so that I wouldn't re-start her properly until I had one - and that was the Fhoenix as well! There are very few other treeless designs that I would even consider putting on her as her back just wouldn't suit them and they would cause damage. I did consider a treed saddle for her before I tried the Fhoenix, but decided against it as she was going to be changing shape too much and without a saddler coming out every month or so I don't believe it would have fitted correctly, and also with the amount of atrophy I am not convinced a treed saddle would have enabled her to build her wasted muscle up, or at least certainly not as well as the Fhoenix.

Obviously I am a little biased towards the Fhoenix saddles as I am an Agent for them, but I only became an agent because I really feel that they are fantastic saddles. That doesn't mean, however, that I believe they are perfect for every horse and rider combination - and what I like about the training we received from Heather is that everything she does is about the welfare of the horse and she was quite adament that if we believed it wasn't suitable for whatever reason when doing a consultation then we must say so - it is not about selling as many as you can, it is about doing what is right by the horse (and rider of course ;-)). So, as with everything, there is not one answer... sorry!

My advice to you OP is to do as much research as you can and then see if you can get a couple of different opinions about what is best for both you and your horse and go with what makes sense to you. It is hard, but if you don't rush in to anything and educate yourself as much as possible then I am sure you will make the right decision!

[julz]

If youre going to go for a treeless saddle, get one that has good reports and is reccommended by people who have or have had one... Stick to the better known makes, (barefoot/HM/Solution) and dont go for one, that you find, that isnt well known.. it will be cheap, but the workmanship will also be cheap and probably shoddy too...

If you buy one off ebay or from someone who is selling it, make sure you get it fitted and balanced to you and the horse by the company who make them.

A badly fitted/balanced treeless is as bad as a badly fitted tree'd saddle

[lucia]

Rather a simplistic answer but buy a saddle that fits - tree'd or treeless and get someone who knows what they are doing to fit it. (Easier said than done I grant you). I have both treed and treeless and there are disadvantages and advantages to both. I think its a case of working out what works and fits both you and your horse. My Welsh Sec A is in a Freeform Jnr as he is so hard to fit and the Freeform was a life saver he is happy and works well in it. My SecDx came in a Barefoot cheyenne but she is wide and it killed me though she was happy in it - she is now in a Barry Swain/.Kay Humphries Holistic Treed. My PRE youngster seems to like the Freeform but I can't ride in it properly and like more stability on a boingy youngster so I have a Lavinia Mitchell treed now for her. But I may have to go back to it if she objects to the treed when she is rebacked in the spring, even if just in the short term. She hated my Flair/WoW saddle with a vengeance and bronced while my old mare loved it! But then my old mare made it quite clear that she would deposit me unceremoniously if I dared to ever put a treeless on her again and I tried HM, Freeform and Barefoot on her (she was quite happy in a bareback pad bizarrely!).
So I think its important to get it fitted right and then try it. Just because it fits doesn't mean your horse will like it, or you!

[DebbieR]

I'd be very unlikely to look at a treed saddle again after buying a HM Vogue. Duchess & I are very happy with it!
Daughter's horse, Saff, has had an original Fhoenix for about 3 years after having muscle spasms caused by a badly fitted treed saddle (which had been checked by a saddle fitter and pronounced ok). Saff has been very comfortable in her Fhoenix as it allows her full movement of her shoulders and her paces have improved as a result as well.

[jes]

I've just changed to a Barefoot Cheyenne after using a Saddle Co treed saddle for years. My horse is difficult to fit as he has quite a curvy back and the treed saddle just didn't sit right on him and was causing a sore back.

He instantly went better in the treeless saddle, much freer and happier. It is comfortable, the only problem I would say is that it does make him feel very wide and it's taken me a while to get used to it. I find it hard to school him in it as I feel as if I can't get my legs around him properly, although after about 20 minutes I find that I've got used to it. It's fab for hacking though and I actually feel more secure in it than my treed saddle. It doesn't move at all, whereas my treed occasionally slipped to the side or back.

All in all I'm quite pleased at the moment, but I've only had it about 6 weeks, so time will tell if it's any good for long term use.

[jadehollinshead]

we have on trial, a dressage treeless saddle, unsure on the make and all, we were having doubts it would fit marley, as (no lies here) we have tried over 60 saddles on him and none were good enough, and he definantly lets me know when he isnt comfy in it.
I took the trial saddle down this morning, me and mum had a look around it on him, tested it a bit, did the girth up, put the saddle pad on underneath, we got 6 other liveries opinions before i got on, i took him in the school, walked around, he didnt do anything, i trotted, and to my amazement, he went such a lot better... my face was like i was amazed, i had a canter, hed never gone so well before.
so, ive got 2 choices, go treeless, buy this cheaper one to stick us out until we can get a good branded treelss.... or there is a made to fit albion saddle ready for him for £1670... which is not going to happen let me say... thats just a £1000 over our budget really

[Bay Mare]

I'm a big fan of treeless saddles. I've had the SBS for 4 years now and haven't had an ounce of trouble with it. I'd like a Vogue but that will need to wait for a bit My mare's back is great, no atrophy or anything. She finds it comfortable, I find it comfortable. Especially with the (recommended) Pro Choice girth it's been very stable, even through her 'haut ecole' moves that she used to be so good at! It did slip once ... when I forgot to do up the girth and even then it stayed put for half an hour of my lesson and only slipped when I must have unbalanced my weight cantering around a corner. I think that a treed saddle would have slipped too

Jan 4, 2009 10:23:56 GMT 1 dillypony said:

The SMS has done pressure testing on treeless saddles and they came out very badly, the treeless saddle makers say that this dose not count as the SMS are not trained to fit them!!! but treeless seem to be sold as the answer to every thing for untrained owners to fit, sorry this is my pet hate LOL.

The key point here is that the SMS were presenting the data and, therefore, have a vested interest in the results!

Heather used the pliance system a few years ago now and, if I remember correctly, THE most important factor was how the rider sat and rode. A chair seat and a driving seat came out badly on the testing of both treed and treeless saddles. I'm sure that she will correct me but I think that bareback came out pretty bad too.

Like treed saddles there are good and bad treeless saddles. Also like treed saddles not all treeless saddles will suit every horse (even if they fit).

A GOOD treeless saddle manufacturer will have trained fitters/agents to help find the correct saddle for your horse and also the appropriate pads if this is necessary. I know for a fact that Heather's agents are all very well trained and are very knowledgeable. I also know that they won't sell a saddle if they don't feel that it is appropriate for that horse or rider.

[julz]

If you can afford £1670 for an albion, which you dont seem to really want... for the same price you could get a brand new Solution saddle (treeless). which would last you for years and years...

www.solutionsaddles.com/index.php?aboutss

[julz]

but treeless seem to be sold as the answer to every thing for untrained owners to fit,

that's not always true... anyone with half a brain will still get the saddle fitted.... and yes they maybe the answer to a large majority of things, but not always so.

We got Seamus a treeless after having a large number of different fitting saddles brought down to try on him, like Jade and Marley, none fitted, and none even came close to fitting. Seamus is what is known as curvy, or chinese dynasty style.... makes his back length quite short and concave, amking it really hard for any tree'd saddle to sit on his back, and make contact. His previous tree;d saddle, and others tryed on him, all bridged, which if ridden in would have given him four pressure sores on his back.

personally, I would go back to a tree'd saddle, but only if it is a perfect fit and comfortable for the horse, if not, treeless it is.