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Post by june on Nov 26, 2008 19:07:41 GMT 1
One is a 5 month old new forest and the other an 18 month old dartmoor. I am aware that they probably don't need anything extra - as several of you have said, it is probably -in most cases- to make us feel we are doing something, therefore making us feel good. I'd probably use Top Spec Comprehensive or Top Spec Balancer in a handful of HiFi Lite. They are likely to be good doers so you don't want to add calories, only vitamins and minerals. Nicola Tyler at Top Spec is well worth talking to. She is willing to recommend other products too which is quite novel for someone working for a feed company!
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Post by jill on Nov 26, 2008 20:25:59 GMT 1
Great thread - apart from Caspars MagOx because I know my soil is deficient and so was he, (he's a different horse on it) I do tend to believe the hype without any proof that some things work - like the glucosomine/chondroitin joint supplements and Top Spec to top up essential vits and minerals. Does anyone know of scientific clinical trials, especially for joint support, since I tend to get the oldies who are a bit stiff, especially in this damp cold weather. But cheap please - can't afford loads of expensive stuff on current funds.
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Post by june on Nov 26, 2008 20:37:55 GMT 1
There aren't many clinical trials on supplements for joint support because they are expensive to do and the supplements aren't branded and patented so the company doing the trial wouldn't get the benefit. There have been trials done in people on glucosamine and that did show a beneficial effect that was statistically significant.
I tend to use micronised linseed for our oldies and it seems to help but that is only a feeling, I've no proof. I get the linseed from a local feed company. It is the same as the SS one but is £25 a bag rather than £45. A bag lasts ages as you only need to feed a teacupful a day. If nothing else, it gives them very shiny coats!
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yan
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Intermediate Poster
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Post by yan on Nov 26, 2008 20:44:26 GMT 1
Like everybody I've tried different supplements.The one I can't do without is Global Herbs Restore,I use it twice a year as a clear out & whenever my boy seems a bit flat,I cant recommend it highly enough.I always keep a bottle of Hilton Herbs combined homeopathic remedy of Arnica,Rhutox & Grava in my medicine box for emergencys.
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Post by sarahbing on Nov 26, 2008 20:53:02 GMT 1
Jill, You raise a really good point about clinical trials. I would be very interested in reading any real clinical data on these products. After working in the pharma industry for many years,we had to prove a response better than placebo in order to market our products. The trials were rigourus, involving ' double blind' studies where neither the medic or patient knew who was receiving the active drug and who was receiving placebo. With reference to you question about joint supplements, working with glycosamines in injectable form, I was always sceptical about the level of absorption via the gut and would be interested in seeing any data. Personally, from a marketig point of view, I think we are sitting ducks for the feed supplement companies. We all probably spend more on our horses health than on our own and it is guilt free spending as we feel we are doing our horses good. I think it is a brilliant idea to look more closely at these products, their content and their claims. In this recession, I'm sure we could all save some money without our horses health being compromised
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Post by june on Nov 26, 2008 23:20:17 GMT 1
You'll be hard pressed to find any clinical trials on "alternative" medicines as there is simply no money to be had from doing so. Pharma companies have patents on their medicines so it is worth spending huge amounts of money to prove the medicines work, but with what are essentially generics there is no money for an individual company in funding a clinical trial. It's a shame but sadly that's how the world works!
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Post by jakeandbarneysmum on Nov 26, 2008 23:42:52 GMT 1
Oh dear... I own a saddlery, so I have a plethora of supplements at my finger tips. Cortaflex HAS been scientifically proven to help - I've been feeding that to Jake (12 year old 16.1hh ID cross) since he had a joint problem 6 years ago. He's been sound (touch wood) since. I started feeding Barney (15 year old 14.2hh reg. New Forest) on Cortaflex when he reached his teens, just as a preventative. (He's ridden and driven) We give the canine cortaflex to our ancient springer spaniel, and it makes the difference (literally) between a dog that can move and a dog that can't!! I recommended it to a customer who had an elderly German Shepherd who's back end kept collapsing. I told him I thought the dog may be too far gone for it to help, but he came back 3 days later to buy more - he said the dog was miraculously better. Other supplements: both boys on Equivite vitamin & mineral supplement. (They don't get a lot of hard feed as they're both very good doers). This stuff, I swear, makes their coats lovely and shiny. (And it smells nice to me, too, lol!!) Barney has NAF Easy Breathing as he's inclined to cough - used to give it to Jake too, but he stopped coughing, so I stopped the supplement, and he seems OK. (When the cough started, we had the vet out, Ventipulmin prescribed, nothing helped, but I soaked their hay and added that NAF Easy Breathing, and they got better). (The coughs started at separate times) Jake has a half dose of Magic calmer (Magnesium). We tried it with Barney (he can be very spooky) but the OH was convinced that Barney got worse. It does help Jake, but we only need a half dose. (We did try Valerian a few years ago, in a time of crisis, but it just made him act drunk!! He reacted to the same things (spooking) but in slow motion! We didn't carry on with that) Equine Gold seems to be really good stuff. I've been experimenting with starting & stopping this - after 3 separate trials on it, I'm convinced that Jake has more energy and is more forward going when he's being fed it. Not sure how that relates to the product (it's just a live yeast). Maybe he's getting more nutrition out of his feed?
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Post by jill on Nov 27, 2008 8:54:29 GMT 1
Interesting point about the expense of clinical trials June, but they did some on some of the human herbal remedies - garlic and St Johns Wort for just two, so it is do-able. I used garlic to reduce my cholesterol just because I knew it had been trailled. I have no idea who did them though - it was a tv programme that mentioned it.
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Jenna
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Post by Jenna on Nov 27, 2008 9:52:10 GMT 1
I don't like feeding supplements just for the sake of it, unless I can actually see a benefit in my own horses. In my opinion all horses are different and have different requirements, and you can only really know what's good for your horse by trial and error.
I used to give them a multi vit/mineral supplement as I don't have much grazing and they're fed ad lib hay, and I wanted to make sure they were getting everything they needed. I couldnt' give them Top Spec because it sends Indi loopy, and none of them would eat the Global Herbs one. But I changed to mineral licks this year - they have three different types in the field - and they can choose if/what they want, and they look great on it.
I add bog standard vegetable oil to Lui's feed, and I know this works as I stopped it for a couple of weeks and he started to loose a bit of weight and his coat was certainly less healthy and shiny. He also gets a cup of tea in his feed, because his back legs do tend to fill. And I know this works, as again I stopped it for a few days and the problem returned.
The only thing I really feed without 'proof' that it works is Echinacea. If one of them is injured or unwell I'll put them on a two-week course - of course I don't really know if it helps however my opinion is that it doesn't do any harm and if it does help, then great.
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Post by Mrs Craig on Nov 27, 2008 10:44:34 GMT 1
"you don't want oxygen in your abdomen anyway because there's methane fart gas in there too, and we don't want anyone cathing fire inside". Less than a third of farters produce methane. These farts will burn with a different colour flame to those of the rest of the population. In any case, if your gas is igniting INSIDE your intestine, you need to stop swallowing lit matches. ;D Ba, I have just started my oldie and veteran on pink powder. Too early to tell if it will get him through the winter in good shape, but he's certainly been much more perky in the two days since I started it! Otherwise I only add Devil's Claw in tablet form, but I'm very skeptical, as after a month I am seeing no difference in him whatsoever. These are the 'Simply Supplements' brand. He does get a glug of veg oil to help keep his weight on. Henry started on MagOx after getting LGL this year, so can't say until next year if it will make a difference, but his management will be altered anyway, so too many variables in this experiment to say!
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Post by jill on Nov 27, 2008 11:57:51 GMT 1
I bought some Devils Claw and some Glucosamine from Simply Supplements when someone mentioned their BOGOF offer, but for some reason I don't think they are as effective as others. I can't explain it but old Russet is stiffer than she should be on both of those and I have put her back on the Gold glucosamine I got for her, then if she is better will get the Equiflex I have used for years. Maybe the human versions are different in some small way.
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Kate
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Post by Kate on Nov 27, 2008 12:04:35 GMT 1
Very interesting thread. I wondered if anyone could tell me what are the differences between feeding Linseed Oil (which my pony is currently on, from Flax Farm) and Micronised Linseed, if there are any?
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Post by sarahbing on Nov 27, 2008 13:41:15 GMT 1
You'll be hard pressed to find any clinical trials on "alternative" medicines as there is simply no money to be had from doing so. Pharma companies have patents on their medicines so it is worth spending huge amounts of money to prove the medicines work, but with what are essentially generics there is no money for an individual company in funding a clinical trial. It's a shame but sadly that's how the world works! June, you are right to an extent. However, alot of their claims are worded in such a way as to suggest that they have this evidence, which I feel is misleading. Why don't we collate all the anecdotal evidence from this thread as Kelly suggests and produce the 'evidence' based on our own (subjective) experience? Not scientific strictly speaking, but definitely a starting point. I would prefer to spend my money on something one of you had tried and tested than by reading a label or some marketing hype! I am happy to do this if anyone thinks it is a good idea?
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Post by Kelly Marks on Nov 27, 2008 16:20:49 GMT 1
Sarahbing - it would be great if you could help us separate the marketing hype! This book 'Bad Science' has really opened my eyes to some things i.e. thinking things were science and evidence based but in fact just clever wording. It was also interesting to read that a lot of the 'alternative' and supplement companies have been bought up by the pharmaceutical giants - because natural health is one of the UKs biggest industries (might even be number 4 but don't believe everything you read even on this DG - check it out!)
Something Mary Bromiley was saying to me last week to consider as well - horses aren't humans - yes, I know we know that - but we have to remember just because something is good for humans it doesn't make it good for horses - there are some big physiological differences.
Also how much do these clinical trials really cost? IH students have done studies recently suitable for peer review and likely to get published (OK I know proud teacher talking and many thanks to Dr Veronica Fowler for making this happen) but these studies have not cost 'a fortune' at all - effort yes - but by no means prohibitively expensive - and that's for the average layman I'm talking about.
Kelly
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Post by Susan on Nov 27, 2008 16:21:24 GMT 1
Well Flynn has been on the micronised Linssed for a month now and so far no difference has been noticable but he may well need longer and he is also to go on Glucosamine.
June he hasnt started to have a shiny coat either!!!!!!!!! I keep hoping.. it will shine enough for the mud to slide off it!
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