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Post by geeup on Dec 30, 2007 9:46:51 GMT 1
its hard to advise because I'm not trained nor can I see whats happening. but I've had two ponies go barefoot and no boots, within 6 months both were trottting on gravel paths. We have to go over gravel paths, at first they'd aim for the grass verge, but then not. 2 years dosn't seem right. Could it be your just panicking? I'm not being rude, your obviuosly a wonderful owner to attend to such detail, but mine have carried on competitng and pony clubbing and doing 15mile hacks since going barefoot. I only really took it easy for about 2 months. one was pure welsh shod for years, the other thorughbredXarab shod about twice and petrified of farriers. Seems not quite right. have you left the soles to harden or is yiur farrier still trimming the underneath as if they are to be shod?
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Post by Liz on Dec 30, 2007 11:45:02 GMT 1
OP, your concern does you credit and you are obviously a careing owner.
It is not a sin to put shoes on a horse if he feels his feet and this would help in those circumstances. It is, in my opinion, a sin not to help a horse if he is sore in the feet when being worked and is finds it hard to cope. Two years seems a long time for a horse to cross over successfully to barefoot - perhaps he does need a bit more help. If shoes made his feet hurt, it doesn't say much for the farrier who attended him.
Yann's ideas seem the most kind and sensible on this thread.
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Azrael
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Post by Azrael on Dec 30, 2007 12:06:50 GMT 1
2 years is a long time to still be having problems. It does suggest that either trim is not right or there's been some other kind of ongoing problem, possibly diet since the TopSpec caused problems. If there is a major dietary problem then it can really affect the condition of the feet and cause problems with both flare/flat soles/stretched white line etc and with comfort and it can take time to recover from that. It makes the whole thing not as simple as 'transition' and then get on with it with lovely new rock crushing feet, any dietary problems can make the horse get stuck in 'transition' or even go backwards sometimes.
Had that experience with fatty. She was able to bomb around over stones sound and starting to gain decent concavity then one incident of gate opening idiot letting her onto lots of grass in ideal laminitis weather and feet went splat and hugely reduced the work she was able to do for months afterwards. Fully recovered from it now.
How much of the problems in shoes was cr*pfarriery and how much an underlying problem that shoes couldn't help with? That'd be an important question for me in figuring out if going back to shoes is the answer or not.
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debbiec
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Post by debbiec on Dec 30, 2007 13:53:50 GMT 1
Shoes restrict circulation.That is proven fact. So if you consider your own body put a rubber band on your arm, and then give time for the circulation to restrict what you feel in your hands. Eventually you can feel less even put your hands in very hot water that before you could not because it was too hot and it hurt. That is shoes. So does it make sense to let your horse feel less so it can cope better? is the question? Sorry Susan but I don't think that's fact. What is proven is that the blood flows differently in a shod foot to an unshod foot. You get more, thinner blood vessels in the bare foot and bigger but fewer blood vessels in the shod foot 9as far as that research goes of course) Personally I think if a horse had had sore feet for 2 years and we knew some way of making him numb so it didn't hurt I'd jump at it. Only if shoes really did do that then why would shod horses go lame with foot problems? It could be time to try something new with this horse (whether or not that's shoes or diet change or environment change I can't say). I wish it were possible to keep every horse sound, but we simply don't know everything yet.
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Post by jes on Dec 30, 2007 14:14:06 GMT 1
My Welsh D gelding has been barefoot for 2 years now as well and we still use boots on the fronts.
During the first year we used boots all round for the summer, then over winter he was fine with boots just on the fronts and his backs are now rock crunching! His fronts are a different story though, he still has underrun heels and long toes and ended up with bruised soles in summer, partly due to me doing a bit more without boots than I should have and partly due to the rich grass that he was on.
In August I got a new trimmer and she started to address the underrun heels and long toes, that clearly hadn't been by my previous trimmer. Then in September I move yards to one where he could come in at night away from the grass and where the grazing is a lot poorer.
I also didn't do any work without boots and pads for around 3 months.
It has made the world of difference and today I rode barefoot all round on stoney tracks with no problems, he even chose to walk over some of the stoney bits instead of the grass.
There are some bridleways we go on that I think I will always need front boots for, but we've come such a long way this year by changing diet (i.e. less grass!), using boots and pads as much as possible and doing some conditioning work in between (walking in hand on the road!).
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Post by Yann on Dec 30, 2007 21:33:59 GMT 1
For some horses it really just isn't enough to pull the shoes, do the trim, feed the diet and wait 6 months. The horse's breeding, where the feet are starting from, the age and history of the horse, where it lives, how it's kept and what it does all play their part. Rio had her shoes pulled over two years ago but even now I wouldn't trot her on a stony track, and there are times when I wouldn't walk her over one either. I think I know what the cause is now, but whether I can do enough about it to overcome it without compromising other aspects of her welfare is another matter. While she's happy and sound in the field and on the yard I think it's my problem, not hers.
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Garry
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Post by Garry on Dec 30, 2007 21:51:46 GMT 1
If your horse as been sore for 2 years now i would go back to getting those hated shoes back on
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Post by Yann on Dec 30, 2007 22:02:13 GMT 1
If that comment was in response to my post there's no need, hoof boots work fine for us as and when we need them.
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potto
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Post by potto on Dec 30, 2007 22:34:12 GMT 1
hmmm difficult decisions noone can make for you and i think you are doing the right thing getting as much knowledge and information as possible from as many different sources as possible. I would certainly recommend getting advice from other barefoot trimmers, preferably from recommended ones by people with happily trimmed barefoot horses and a mass of experience. I would also speak to farriers who trim and shoe and other horse owners who have attempted or may keep their horses barefoot in your particular area it self to see if they have successfully managed and with what level of work. Vets also can recommend known good work by trimmers or remedial farriers in your area who are respected! I would talk to them all. Ultimately you want to do the best for your horse, which we are assuming in this instance, is barefoot (as you have chosen to follow this route and continued for two years) However it is not a cheap, quick or easy option and if you and your horse are unable ultimately to enjoy your time together, and you are paying out for your pastime but not able to do what you wish without worrying or perhaps causing your horse injury or soreness then it is not necessarily the best option for you both at this time. However i would definately explore all of your options and avenues and look at the whole picture... What ever you decide... don't feel guilty you quite obviously have your horses best interests at heart... good luck.
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Post by pinkpony on Dec 30, 2007 22:38:20 GMT 1
weeeelll....Today I saw a horse who went barefoot about 6 months ago, with a trimmer reccomended from advice on here (ta Yann). I haddnt see this horse for 6 months and was really supprised to see how much that horse had changed in that time! His shape had changed alot, and he trully looked happier. His feet are looking fab and he is sound yard field and soft / medium tracks. Im so sorry its not going so well for you....I reckon yanns yer man...and just feel that if even shod your hore wasnt sound, there are other undiscovered problems perhaps, and nailing a shoe back on possibly wont solve that. eta a
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Post by Susan on Dec 31, 2007 1:14:00 GMT 1
There is evidence to back up this, less circulation in shod horse and that leads to less sensation.
But if anyone feels it is better to have a horse cope because it cant feel as much then go for it, that does not mean its feet are OK it simply means it cant feel as much.
Nerve blocks do same. and de-nerving..
Did you not see Flynn had hit hiccup but why? diet of grass and him telling me I assuming of course.. but I am only giving my opinion.. and ask a question get advice from all quarters.
Boots... simple answer and far better surely..
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Post by Susan on Dec 31, 2007 1:44:16 GMT 1
nuala2 thanks for suggestion but after 2 half years I do know Flynn and chatting at length to another daep the other night similar situation.. and we both know each others horses for a long time now.. know it isnt a vet issue..honest.. but diet and sugars do play havoc.. so If Flynn says I prefer the grass track I go with that.. and I have found if I pad him up he is fine and that makes life easier for him whilst conditioning more.
I have jumped in boots! I just hate them to fit on Flynn as the larger horse size is not easy to fit on as it is for a smaller breed horse. But if we need them we put them on, or we choose a route that wont cause him difficulty. Tarmac is not a problem at all.
If in the situation that I dont want to be put out at all then Barefoot would not be for me, but I am prepared for his longer term issue to go with what he offers. I cant put nails in his hooves, sorry.. for a couple of hours a week out of 7 x 24.. come drier conditions we hardly have an issue. I am simply saying iffy for a while.. doesn't mean you have to jump back to shoeing.. I have even made slippers to help if needs must.
But this is me and my feelings.
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Post by Yann on Dec 31, 2007 11:43:05 GMT 1
You can jump in boots, but not all of them are particularly suitable for grass or XC, and they need to be a good fit. Not done much jumping in the Renegades yet but they do look very promising in that respect, unfortunately they're still not really on the market yet in any meaningful way. It's still difficult for most serious competition riders to contemplate full time barefooting seriously as far as I can see.
Edited to add that hoof boots are forbidden under BE rules, it would be interesting to know what the reasoning is behind this.
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jo
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Post by jo on Dec 31, 2007 11:56:28 GMT 1
take a long hard look at why you bought a horse in the first place, did you buy to ride or nurse? did you want to compete? Have you bought a horse who is ideal candidate for no shoes - if not, go the shod route?
Put it in a different light, how long ARE you going to go on waiting for the horse to be ok ridden/competing without shoes? If you're ok not riding for another 2 years, 1 year, 1 month then go ahead and get by doing the boots thing but if you want to ride, horse was ok shod, find the best farrier you can and get him shod!
I do believe that not all horses are going to be ok without shoes. They simply aren't bred well enough in this country for no shoes anymore, even the British breeds - some just aren't going to cope with no shoes if they have always been shod.
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Azrael
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Post by Azrael on Dec 31, 2007 12:05:17 GMT 1
I tried jumping fatty in old macs and she did manage it but she was happier jumping without them, she only had them on at all because we had to hack to the school we were using to jump and this was years ago when her feet were horrible. She jumped ok in back boots but was much more keen once the fronts were off. I jump her bootless now. Friend has jumped her horse barefoot up to 3'6" and she flew it despite not having brilliant feet.
Apart from some XC take off and landings most jumping is done on a nice enough surface that if a horse isn't happy on that surface without boots then the feet are really unlikely to be up to jumping booted or not anyway. I'm not sure jumping with feet like that even in shoes would be a good idea. The lovely stoney car parks and paths so many places seem to think are the ideal surface for horses to wait around to compete on are more of a problem than the actual competing.
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