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Post by Pauline on Dec 27, 2006 9:07:39 GMT 1
Highlanderpony2002
I have read with interest all the post that people have written about your filly.
Apart from one person that suggested sedating her no one else has done so.
A youngster that has turned wild for one reason or another will continue to be wild if you try and force them. You need to calm them down.Ask your vet for a sedative you can put in her feed,maybe a little more than you would normally give her for age and weight, then gently herd her to a corner and / or into a trailer. The partitions will allow you to get to her head without going near her hind quarters
Once you have her you can then put the head collar on.
Once you have a headcollar on you could do some work to get her to turn her quarters away from you (disengage them) so that to start with she is facing you and can not kick you.
The use of calming herbs and oils can be useful to. You could put a calmer in her feed to.
Pauline
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Post by Catrin on Dec 27, 2006 12:25:35 GMT 1
... Once you have her you can then put the head collar on. Once you have a headcollar on you could do some work to get her to turn her quarters away from you (disengage them) so that to start with she is facing you and can not kick you.... Am I missing something here? Having her headcollar on, surely that isn't the point of the activity? Isn't the purpose to get her to come to you, not attack you, so putting the headcollar on can be achived. If you sedate her and get the headcollar on, has she actually learned that you can be trusted and respected, surely not if she is sedated? Won't you still need a safe enclosed area to work her in again?
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Post by Pauline on Dec 27, 2006 17:09:34 GMT 1
Catrin
May be you are missing the point too.
Highlanderpony2002 needs a head collar on because she wants to have the farrier see to the pony. I think that once the filly has a head collar on she will be able to control her better.
After working with many abused horses the first thing you need to be able to do is as you say get their trust BUT at the moment the filly has the upper hand.Once the headcollar is on then at least The owner will have a little more control
May be as a communicator Highlanderpony should ask you to find out why the filly has turned out the way she is.
As for the sedation this is not a short cut to controlling the filly but a means of getting the head collar on.
Unless the owner has plenty of time each day to spend with the filly, then trying to round her up or corner her will only frighten her but not getting her into a trailer where she is confind into a small space.
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Post by SarahW on Dec 27, 2006 17:50:57 GMT 1
Please please don't sedate this pony just to get a headcollar onto it unless it is a real emergency. Please please don't drive it into a trailer with partitions and bars when it is sedated. Unless a horse is given intravenous sedation, you cannot predict the effect of sedation - with some horses it will have the desired effect and with others they will fight it. Some horses react very badly indeed when they come out of sedation. You could end up with a pony that not only won't have a headcollar on but will never go near a trailer again or even a badly injured pony (and handler).
No-one has suggested forcing a headcollar onto this pony. Everyone has suggested non-violent and peaceful means of persuading the pony to accept it's headcollar using body language (advance and retreat) and perhaps clicker training. The only issue has been how to make this as safe as possible for the pony and the handler.
I would worry about moving the pony loose down the road if there was any chance that it could go through a fence at the side or past the blocks at the end. I would worry about using mesh panels where it's not possible to escape if the pony really does get aggressive.
You ask how did the pony get like that in the first place - they are all born that way! God, it's mother and instinct all tell the newborn foal to retain it's ability to flee from dangerous situations. It would be good if someone had intervened to persuade the pony otherwise while it was younger and weaker but they didn't. It just needs to be persuaded of that now.
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Post by Pauline on Dec 27, 2006 18:05:41 GMT 1
Something has happened to this filly.
If you read the early post she was fine hence she did not have a head collar on to start with.
NOT all horses come into this world afraid.
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Post by Catrin on Dec 27, 2006 18:06:44 GMT 1
... Highlanderpony2002 needs a head collar on because she wants to have the farrier see to the pony. I think that once the filly has a head collar on she will be able to control her better. But, anaesthetising horses should be for surgical procedures and matters of life and death, not as a substitute for basic training. I know it is the norm in germanic and other european cultures, but some IH would have done the job in every case I witnessed in 10 years abroad. So this is the bit I need explaining. You get the head collar on, but you have a sedated horse, how do you do all the moving around and leading that you would do if you had had a conscious horse in half a round pen. If you can't teach this and reinforce it on the next dew days, what actually is achieved by sedation + head collar. I may be suffering from post Christmas brain malfunction, but I can't see where this is going. About once a fortnight, I get a phone call from someone with a similar type of query. I explain that there can be a number of reasons and I may be able to tell you which one applies in your case, however, it won't help you to get the headcollar on to know that the foal has learned that if it kicks out it can control you. For this reason, I keep the RA list next to the phone and refer the person to the nearest RA, Sylvia Arnold or the IH office.
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Post by Rosie J on Dec 27, 2006 18:20:33 GMT 1
I recently had a kicking donkey \(yes another - I seem to be kicking donkey lady) in to work with. She too, was uncatchable, because you could not get around her back end to touch her - being so small, yearlings (and donkeys!) can play really good 'body chess' and spin really quickly. The best advice I can give you (on top of what Liz P and Saraw W have allready said) is that wiht your pressure and release work, if she kicks out at you, or runs off, you have gone to far - you have missed your opportunity to teach her, you have made a mistake. you need to apply just anough pressure to very slightly concern her, then take it away again. This will gradually stretch her boundaries. Definately a long arm will help, definately an RA, and definately a safe encplsed area like a roundpen - with these three things this problem could be a good way towards being solved in a jiffy, and wihtout you have a lot of hard work ahead of you. I have often thought of a quick and safe roundpen for people like you to mustyer up in these situations - I wonderred about something made oyut of tarpaulin sheet, so that it was a visual blockade but no mesh for the horse to get stuck in etc. I dont know, Ive never thought it through enough to conclude it was safe, but might be a starting point? Go through your safety checklists agai nand again. dont be tempted to drive her into a small corner that she could jump, however unlikely it is. You have to be even more safety concious with horses who dont want to be cuahgt because if anything did happen you may not be able to appraoch to help. Do not be tempted to chase, or scold her for kicking at you, she is saying 'i dont want you to touch me' so dont give her more reason to belive that. Try not to let her move you about to much using kikcing threats either, but obviously stay safe, the chances are, if shes threatening to kick, youve gone too far (unless its with a false hand in which case you are able to keep the pressure on wihtout breaking a limb if neccessary, so you can keep pressure on through a kicking episode rather than take it away before one arises!). If you are at all worried about touching her or being near her, you need someon else to help, because this will make your touch electric to her! Do you kjnow how to make a hlater out of a long rope? this will be easier to put on than a normal headcollar. Practice on a quiet horse first!!! Good luck!
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Post by Pauline on Dec 27, 2006 19:23:30 GMT 1
case closed
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xxx
Novice Poster
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Post by xxx on Dec 27, 2006 21:15:18 GMT 1
Do not sedate her unless it is life and death. I abhor sedating for training/ routine things. USe the other situations and unless something happens, i.e needs the vet for illness/injury (when she would probably be easier to catch anyway) I would not be sedating. Also second removing hard feed and building some sort of pen, but hate the builders panels idea. maybe build your own?
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Post by highlanderpony2002 on Dec 28, 2006 1:14:58 GMT 1
The pen will be about 4'6 high with three rails. I will take the old mare in and let the filly follow and close the gate. The filly has had no foal handling and was brought straight from mum to my stable. I kept her in for a few weeks so I could catch her in the stable without a headcollar and put it on and of course pick up her feet and groom her. She then spent a few weeks on the livery yard going out on her own and coming in each night. For several more weeks she was turned out with a headcollar on and in her present field as she was easy to catch and deal with I haad no qualms about removing her headcollar as she had been so good. She has been fed and handled as in scratching her neck and grooming her without her headcollar on but when I went to actually catch her to bring her in for the farrier she turned and booted out fortunately she missed as I was somewhat surprised but avoided her feet. The problem arose when I dropped her lead rope over her head to catch her and put on her headcollar and she ran off kicking at that point I had lost her respect as she had got away. I had to let go of one end of the rope to avoid her getting hurt or me getting pulled over. These last few days she ahs allowed me to scratched her neck again and will let me touch her again. without kicking I can spend some time with her and now she is in with the others I am hoping their trust and in your face attitude will rub off enough for her to realise I have no intention of hurting her. The yearling and two year old are so in your face they adore people. this is my first port of call next will be the pen I have a few weeks before the farrier comes again so I am sure it will be ok and if necessary she can be wormed in her feed. Her feet are fine as they have been done regularly since she came and this is the first time she has missed he comes every 6 weeks. Feeding will continue as per normal as I want her to keep growing and keep her well. Personally I do not think she is afraid just challenging
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Post by Catrin on Dec 28, 2006 13:06:43 GMT 1
Sounds like you have done everything fine and this was just a blip. Keep up with the handling and scratching and when you get to the headcollar, try leading when you are sure of success: she is in a small safe space. I'm sure it'll work out fine, if you are patient, as you've done so much co far. If we don't get a problem, from time to time, we never learn how to avoid or solve the next one that comes along.
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Post by highlanderpony2002 on Dec 28, 2006 14:32:16 GMT 1
Thanks everyone for their ideas some were very interesting some went a bit against the grain but I now have a happy foal again even if she is not yet wearing her headcollar . She is jealous of the attention to other two were getting this morning and was pushing in for her share of the fuss I don't do titbits so it is only for scratches but she wasn't going to be left out.
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Post by SarahW on Dec 28, 2006 18:50:33 GMT 1
It sounds like you will get there very quickly and at least you have somewhere really secure to work with her.
Best of luck.
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Post by SarahW on Dec 29, 2006 19:11:03 GMT 1
Incidentally, I do think that all foals are born afraid of predators and it's only with the right kind of human intervention that they learn otherwise - much better than human children that are afraid of nothing (electricity sockets; boiling pans of water and the iron) until they learn otherwise. Fear and the flight response are the manufacturer's default setting for foals.
I'm also not convinced that ahorse under sedation is not still being forced to endure something. I have my horses sedated to have their teeth done because I hope it makes the whole process much less traumatic for them and gives the vet a chance to the job really throughly. However, it could be that the only thing that is taken away is the option of running away and doing something about what is happening to them. Could it be like coming light under general anaesthetic and not being able to do anything about it? For horses it must be horrible if not just weird to have the flight fight option taken away from them. As a precautionary tale, I have just told that a local vet received a very nasty kick from a horse coming light under intravenous sedation. He was in a confined space with it and was knocked into a wall and got a nasty crack to his skull.
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Post by felicia on Dec 29, 2006 19:56:55 GMT 1
We have to move our mares and foals down a busy stretch of rural road from time to time and someone drives in front - headlights and hazards on and same behind. The people leading the mares wear high-viz and so far, touch wood, we haven't had any problems. The stable might be the quickest option if you can get some drivers together
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