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Post by Spirit of Wales on Nov 23, 2005 13:25:17 GMT 1
I have an interesting and helpful book called 'Practical Horse Whispering By Perry Wood.
My question is: In this book it says that an the equine behaviour of licking lips and grinding back teeth is submissive behaviour and letting you know that your the boss. However, I mentioned this to a local lady who trains horses (although I was not impressed with her methods and will not be using again) and she said it was aggressive behaviour and now I don't know who to believe?
Any comments on this would be appreciated as my foal displays this behaviour and I don't want to get it wrong when reading his body language, especially as he has strong colt tendancies already...
Thanks Lincslass
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pip
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Post by pip on Nov 23, 2005 13:44:21 GMT 1
"Licking and chewing" is submissive foal-like behaviour.
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Post by rj on Nov 23, 2005 13:44:40 GMT 1
You have to take it in context, and the 2 things are not the same anyway. You will get loads of opinions on the lip licking, but when used in conjunction with other signals, such as ears cocked, head lowered, and compliance with a request, I take it to mean 'oh, that's what you wanted, got it now, OK' or similar, so that could be seen as submissive. If it's combined with ears back or shaking head, it's probably stress. Teeth grinding is usually stress too - my mare does that at clinics sometimes, & I feel could be pain related. I don't think it is agressive, it's unwanted and a sign that all is not well. If the teeth grinding is accompanied by other obvious aggressive behaviour, you can look for eyes (can you see the whites), ears(what position are they in) mouth/nostrils (are the wrinkled & tight), then you have a better clue.
Whatever they do, look for the cause, & you'll probably work it out for yourself
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Post by LisaM on Nov 23, 2005 14:00:32 GMT 1
I take it to mean 'oh, that's what you wanted, got it now, OK' or similar, so that could be seen as submissive. I take it as this totally!
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seabiscuit
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Post by seabiscuit on Nov 23, 2005 14:35:22 GMT 1
My old girl used to grind her teeth in an aggressive way, particularly when fiddling around her girth area. She'd had a bit of a bad life and I think it was a bad habit that stuck with her. You could tell it was aggressive...ears went back, tail swished, etc.
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Post by fin on Nov 23, 2005 22:52:30 GMT 1
Licking and chewing can be slightly anxious too. Depends on the context
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Post by Linda J on Nov 24, 2005 15:57:12 GMT 1
My mare greets me with licking and chewing in the mornings, over her stable door. This is accompanied by happy ears and almost a smile, so I take it that she is glad to see me and is hoping there are carrots for breakfast. Maybe she is saying yes, please.
You are not impressed with this trainers methods anyway so why not just go with your own instincts. If its the submissive sort of gesture the horse's face will tell you.
Teeth grinding is a completely different thing, more like gritting ones teeth. It is accompanied by a sour look and evil ears. This is associated with stress and anxiety or discomfort.
How old is your colt?
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Post by kas on Nov 24, 2005 19:40:06 GMT 1
Oh, do you mean that little grinning face that foals make and sometimes they clack their teeth? Last time my girl did that she was about 2. She never did it to me, but would do it to an older horse that was pushing her a bit hard about something. If it's that then it's definitely a submissive gesture. A friend of mine calls it "making baby teeth" - I love that description. I had a very anxious horse who would lick his lips and grind his teeth when he was anxious. He didn't like to be in too close proximity with a group of other horses he didn't know. If I took him to a clinic and it got a bit much, which was normally when we were standing listening to the trainer, he'd start licking and grinding his teeth. You could hear it all round the arena! That was very sad, he's sort of cross his jaws, put his head down and be worried. Maybe if you tell us what sort of situations your cold does this in, and more about how he looks, people would be able to give you a better idea. Horses do show teeth sometimes as an sort of angry gesture, but if he's licking as well then it doesn't sound like aggression.
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Post by Spirit of Wales on Nov 25, 2005 13:39:44 GMT 1
Thanks to everyone for their advice. Galahad generally displays this behaviour once we have finished a training session, but also it can occur during the training, so it could be a bit of anxiety, although I keep all sessions short and end on a positive note. However, as the last posting said when he does this on an evening when I have him in his stable he gives the most adorable cheeky grin and grinds his teeth. His eyes are soft and relaxed as are his ears and we usually finish with a wither rub (Him not me ;D) I'll be checking with my IH recommended associate who I now have to advise me that I'm doing things right as I'm a complete novice and who has helped with some training with my boy in just two sessions. It's amazing the difference in Galahad when Garry handled him for the first time compared to the lady I will not be recommending too anyone. I recommend anyone who needs help to only use one of the IH recommended associates, they do a great job... Lincslass (Here's a photo of my boy)
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seabiscuit
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Post by seabiscuit on Nov 25, 2005 14:52:35 GMT 1
how cute! what a fluffy teddy!!
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Post by Spirit of Wales on Nov 25, 2005 15:21:54 GMT 1
He does look and feel like a teddy and that gives me a dilemma on whether to rug him or not? He seems happy enough without and does dislike it when we have desensitisation sessions with towels, etc to get him use to things on his back. I suppose with most natives they naturally grow a winter coat and he is put in his stable at night with a thick layer of straw on the floor and plenty of hay. Enter in the morning and the stable is rather cosy compared too outdoors. So I'm not sure whether or not to rug him. I think its more me feeling guilty when the winds blowing a gale and raining heavily, as he always as access to his open field shelter if he wants it.
Me being over protective of my first... Lincslass
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Post by kas on Nov 25, 2005 20:12:09 GMT 1
Ah he's really cute! So cuddly (((hugs for Galahad))). I wouldn't rug him, especially if he's coming in at night. Even if he gets a little bit chilly he'll be fine. Start as you mean to go on and in future years you can smile quietly at the "shall I rug or not?" threads.
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Post by fin on Nov 25, 2005 22:04:31 GMT 1
Awwww, what a little poppet! He looks like a cuddly toy!!!! Surely nothing that cute and fluffy could possibly be real!
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Post by Cameo on Nov 26, 2005 22:26:08 GMT 1
I think your original question has been answered, but re: rugging - I don't think he needs it. Native types have the right coat quality to deal with the weather - they are designed to live outside on Mountain and Moorland - hence the name!
If his fur after a seriously wet bout loses its waterproof-ness ( the "fur" goes like a wet paintbrush rather than into spikes - then a horse may need extra protection - or at least a break form the weather as they will then get wet-and-cold. he is very sweet - what plans do you have for him ( just being nosey!)
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Post by Spirit of Wales on Nov 27, 2005 18:43:51 GMT 1
Thanks for the advice and I think I will leave him unrugged as he seems happy enough to simply take himself into his open field shelter during the day if the weather becomes too miserable.
Don't be fooled by his cute looks, he can be as stubborn as a mule and very, very mischevious. Typical colt he likes to try and nip, but doesn't get the chance these days I've learnt to be one step ahead of him...
As for the future, he will always be a companion pet, but I would like a bash at hand lead showing, but as a novice I have a long way too go and a lot too learn.
Lincslass.
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