Organic whole oats and dietry advice sought

[sixfootblonde]

Hi,

Having read about Pat Coleby's approach to nutrition, I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me further?

I have a pregnant QH mare (nearly 5 months). She has a little hay and grass. She has started to drop condition and I need to know what to feed her? I was thinking whole oats (soaked). What vitamins/minerals? Free choice or not? It seems like a minefield.

Also, I am trying to source organic whole oats - does anyone know where I can get them from?

Thanks.

Maria

[shep]

I would be afraid of not giving my mare enough of the minerals and vitamins she needs if I 'did my own' hard feeds, so I would ring a horse feed manufacturer and ask what supplements you need as well as where to source the oats; I did not know you could soak whole oats, I thought they had to be bruised or rolled first for horses; I steer well clear of cereals altogether and use Alfa-A with oil, sugarbeet (unmollassed) and succulents, with adlib hay, and a broad spectrum mineral and vitamin supplement.

[sixfootblonde]

Thanks for your reply.

Well, I have a problem with the 'complete' feeds as they claim to provide everything a horse needs but every horses' needs are different. Also, I am very much against the feeding of sugar. I am looking for a vit/min supplement but am trying to find a natural source as opposed to synthetic vitamins (not an easy task). When whole oats are soaked their enzyme level goes right up which is very good for any animal I understand.

[naria]

I'm not sure if they are organic but have you looked at Tiger Oats? A Google on Gro Well Feeds will give you some info & you could ring the company to ask any queations you have.

[Louise C]

How about looking at Simple Systems food - lots of people on here seem to use it, although I have no personal experience of it.

[sixfootblonde]

1635 said:

How about looking at Simple Systems food - lots of people on here seem to use it, although I have no personal experience of it.

Hi,

I do have their food at the moment. And was about to order more. But I understand that Alfalfa in any quantity larger than a handful really is not to good for the gee gees. I believe it is the protein/fibre ratio is the wrong way round for horses.

Will check out Gro Well feeds though.

Thanks both of you

[VeronicaF]

Hi sixfootblonde, can you tell us more about Pat Coleby's approach to nutrition? please
Thank you love Vxx

[rust not logged in]

oh, if you find a non synthetic vit & mineral suppliment can you let me know iv been looking for one

[sixfootblonde]

veronicaf said:

Hi sixfootblonde, can you tell us more about Pat Coleby's approach to nutrition? please
Thank you love Vxx

Good question!

I only know snippets as I am waiting for friend to finish with book. The book is called Natural Horse Care by pat Coleby. It lists specific illnesses and what ;acl of nutirents can contribute. All about how she has not wormed for 35 years I think and explains how this is possible through maintaining correct vit/min levels etc. Absolutely fascinating book.

If I find a non-synthetic source of vits/mins I will let you know

[marigold]

Allen and Page are not organic but are GM free and reckon their vits and minerals are non synthetic....
Nicked off their website;
This feed does not contain synthetic vitamins and minerals. Brewers yeast, alfalfa and herbs provide rich natural sources of Calcium ,Phosphorous, Magnesium, Potassium, Sodium, Selenium, Copper, Zinc, Managnese, Iron, Iodine,Vitamins B1, B2, B12 , Biotin, Vitamin A, Vitamin C, Vitamin D, Vitamin E and Vitamin K.

Don't use it myself but interesting....

[gillmcg]

Re alfalfa being 'bad' for horses - I imagine the nutritionist at Simple Systems would dispute this as their whole feeding ethos is built on it and there are a lot of owners on here (me included) who have seen the improvement it's made in their horses temperament, weight maintenance in the winter, skin condition, coat, etc etc.

I don't understand how you can kill/deter/expel worms by feeding vitamins and minerals? I assume this is in addition to a closed herd and clean paddock regime and based on regular worm counts and blood tests?

[sixfootblonde]

Hi,

I understand it is the high protein/low fibre ratio of alfalfa that is more suitable for cows than horses.

Re. vits and worms - apparently proper levels of copper help the horse expel worms. Also, various other vitamins play a roll. I would believe this to be possible. To have a healthy body will stop alot of damage before it has started.

gillmcg said:

Re alfalfa being 'bad' for horses - I imagine the nutritionist at Simple Systems would dispute this as their whole feeding ethos is built on it and there are a lot of owners on here (me included) who have seen the improvement it's made in their horses temperament, weight maintenance in the winter, skin condition, coat, etc etc.

I don't understand how you can kill/deter/expel worms by feeding vitamins and minerals? I assume this is in addition to a closed herd and clean paddock regime and based on regular worm counts and blood tests?

[gillmcg]

Hiya
Definitely agree about the healthy body being able to deal with parasites/disease. Trouble I have is that unless you regularly have the soil analysed and blood tests on your horse it's very difficult to supplement appropriately and high levels of particular vits or mins can do more harm than good.

Re the high protein/low fibre thing - I guess this is in relation to other forage rather than the cereal based feeds most owners use? I use alfalfa as a bucket feed - probably about 1kg max a day to supplement a grass/hay diet - perhaps the research this author has done is based in the US where a lot of their forage is alflalfa/lucerne replacing the meadow hay we prefer to use in the UK? Perhaps if fed at these levels it could be undesirable?

[stephandwinni]

Alfalfa is great if fed as a smaller part of the feed - up to around 40% seems to be the agreed amount and this is a lot! I feed half his bucket feed alfalfa, the other half is beet, both from Simple System. It would be useful to add amino acids like lysine and methionine as they are not available in great quantities in most horse feeds, the protein in alfalfa is as you say lower cattle type quality but a good basis for horses, and I think oats is alos low in them. Top Spec would provide this, but is synthesised as far as I know, Simple System Total Eclipse is natural but not really full spectrum. Linseed is in it, and has a high protein level, so may contain lysine and methionine, I'm not sure.

[gillmcg]

It seems that Pat Coleby is an Australian woman who has a lot of experience with cows, goats and horses. She was keen to be a vet as a youngster but never made it (I know a GP who wanted to be a vet but couldn't get in to vet school). This is a clip about worms from her book Natural Horse Care - haven't read it myself yet....

Worms

An alternative strategy for worms

In the old days one knew when animals were wormy — they were scrappy tempered, their eyes tended to run and they were picky with their feed. When this occurred, we used to give the animal a drench. For the last 12 years I have not used a proprietary drench on any horse, brood mares included. When I felt the horses needed worming, I have realized that the copper sulfate levels in their feeds were too low and raised them accordingly. If you are in any doubt, have a vet do a worm count. This strategy has been tried on other animals as well with complete success.

I was encouraged to try alternatives to drenching for several reasons — one was a fear of the toxic after effects of many of the conventional drenches which were, apparently, the only answer; the other was the knowledge that horse masters of old used copper, although there was no mention of the amounts given. The most convincing reason was provided as I read the collected works of one of the world’s greatest soil scientists, William A. Abrecht. Dr. Albrecht proved that animals whose systems contained the correct amount of copper did not suffer from interior parasites; they could eat worm eggs in the paddock, but the worms did not stay in the animal once they hatched if the copper intake was correct.

The amount of copper I suggest in the rations are half a teaspoon (two grams) per day per horse as a good base to start from — some black or chestnut horses patently need three to four grams (a teaspoon) a day. If a worm count is taken and it is around 150 eggs per gram or below, this amount of copper is quite satisfactory. A friend has a 32-year-old buckskin gelding that she looks after at an animal aid place near Sydney, and he had a worm count of around 3,000 when she first got him. No known drench had any effect at all, and he did not look too good. We started him on high levels of copper (with his other minerals of course) and he looked better and better. We settled on two tablespoons of copper a day; he now looks marvelous, the worms are decreasing steadily (down to 800), and he is only getting one tablespoon now. Everyone remarks how well he looks — so the parameters are fairly wide. They are borne out by work done by the University of Minnesota on ponies and copper intake. They tried to kill the first lot but failed. At the end of the experiment they were still receiving amounts of copper that would stop most other animals in their tracks, and they were extremely well. They were not getting dolomite either, which acts as a brake on copper toxicity without stopping its usefulness.

Drenches are only a short-term answer to the worm problem; good nutrition, healthy pastures and good farm practices are the long-term solution. In days gone by, worms were not the problem they are now — chemical farming has decreased the ability of the natural fauna of the paddocks to process the manure. Also the animal’s resistance to interior parasites has been lowered due to the lack of copper in its feed — a result of the chemical fertilizers used in growing it.

Another rather chilling factor has also emerged in the last year or two — many people find it difficult to believe that the every six-week drench is no longer necessary when they are feeding their horses correctly, so they still continue the practice. There have been two deaths and one near death (they called in time) after drenching with the usual drench, whatever it was. I do not know what brand of drenches were involved, but the people concerned used them with their vets blessings and it took the horses four days to die — all the vet could say apologetically was: "It happens sometimes." One of the horses was a top performance horse — it takes a long time to get them up there. The question is, did they die of anaphylactic shock, the cumulative effects of the drench, or was the drench in some way unstable. The one owner who did call in time saved their horse with fairly large amounts of vitamin C given in a hurry.

I was told years ago by the vets at the University of Melbourne that you could not rid a paddock of worms, no matter how long you rested it. Somehow I think if they never reach maturity, they will eventually give up. Copper does not kill them, they merely will not stay in an animal whose copper reserves are correct.