How to stop a pony from biting?

[potnoodle]

I have a 13.2, 10 year old mere called spice. She has had a bad past, and therefore is unsuitable to be ridden.
At the moment she is kept with my other horse in a field during the day, and stable at night.
In one way she is always keen to be stroked but,She refuses to be brushed, lead, rugged or handled in any other way. If you do try she will bite you. She will even bite you if you try and stroke her.
I understand that she has been badly abused and beaten, but i have never harmed her and i feel that she should trust me by now.
At the moment she is completely rug-less because its nearly impossible to get one on her.
I would appreciate any ideas that anyone has to stop this biting, or to at least make it less regular.

[circusdancer]

You don't say how long you have had Spice so its difficult to judge whether there should be a marked improvement.

There is a good example in Perfect Manners which suggests that you demonstrate your reaction quite loudly. This has worked for me in the past because the horse that went to bite was shocked and bewildered by the reaction (as were the people that were present at the time because I hadn't even discussed this particular tactic and I probably came across as a wailing banshee).

Its difficult to say without more input from you because I have a pony that is a persistent nipper. He has been on box rest for two months now and never nipped in all that time. Now that he is feeling much better and out for a limited time, he's nipping again.

Its probably bad form to say this but I am relieved because I know he is very much on the mend and in his case I think its high jinks as undesirable as it might be. ;D

[potnoodle]

Thanks for replying. I have had spice for 1 and a half years now and during that time she has lived in three different places. I dont think its because of this but i do know that she is always at the bottom of the pecking order with other horses, Maybe she just brings out all her bottled up agression on me!!! She seems to want affection but doesnt know how to give it back!

[KoLaTo]

I know some people will shout me down but I think circusdancer will know what I mean when I say 'like for like' ? I can only go by my own experience of nippers including the mare I have now who is a reformed habitual biter! And that is to bite/nip/pinch back preferably on a thin piece of skin so that she does actually feel what it is like to be bitten. After all, if she does it to another pony in the herd, they will do it straight back. My mare was extremely shocked when I nipped her back right on the end of her nose, she tried again and I bit again and she will now only bite out of temper/greed for which she is reprimanded by a pinch and a sharp 'no' or if I brush a particulary tender bit of skin too roughly for which she will nip me but not actually bite hard. She is also the bottom of the herd althou the herd is only 3 of them and very rarely retaliates in the field environment unless little boy really pushes her!

[circusdancer]

Is it aggression? Is Spice actually trying to take chunks out of you with teeth bared or snatching at you? Either is not pleasant but it makes a difference in trying to understand the problem.

I can try and help you unwind the reasoning but hopefully someone could help with the solution. Can you give an example of what has happened in the past?

[circusdancer]

Ponypit we cross posted!

Most of the time I ignore the snatching/nipping because I'm sure it is attention seeking and he is trying to force me into play or exerting his authority . When it goes too far, I chuck a fruity and he goes back to meek. I know he's insecure but am I over compensating for that by allowing him some mileage before reacting?

[potnoodle]

She is completely confused in her need for attention.If you hold your hand out she licks for ages,but if you then try and stroke or groom for more than a few seconds her ears go flat back and she will swing round and try and bite.Its impossible to rug her or really give her any handling, yet she will instantly trot over when she sees you and wait at the gate for attention.If you walk through the field she will follow and try and bite you.
I rode her for a year , but she had a tendancy to rear and fall backwards.It was discovered she has a deformed back having had her back broken in 3 places as a youngster.
We know the people before us rode her hard and treated her very badly.
I completely lost my confidence in riding after the accidents and I still cant ride my new pony.
My mum and I try to give her lots of love and in many ways she is really friendly but she doesnt have any real trust of people.

[KoLaTo]

It does appear she is associating the handling with pain I would say. If the previous owners had the routine of catch, groom and then ride whilst she was in pain then she will still associate any kind of handling with that same pain and therefore tries to avert it by biting you as soon as she is out of her comfort zone i.e. 'right my old owners pet me then they caught me and groomed me which was nice but then they rode me which was painful so if I stop my new mum grooming me and petting me, she can't ride me so I won't get hurt?'

It does sound like an association problem which are notoriously hard to overcome. I think my mare had her ears twitched when she was a baby on the forest and consequently even at 7 yrs old, she is totally paranoid about her ears. I can now just stroke them and occasionally rub them when she is really relaxed but any kind of pressure at all and she freaks, rears and tries to bite. Similarly with her back and girth area, at some stage she must have been ridden sporadically in an ill fitting saddle which caused her pain and therefore when I got her, she associated the saddle and riding with pain, she reared and bucked constantly, I had her back sorted out and a new saddle fitted to her and hey presto, problem solved althou it took her a while to figure out that 'actually this saddle dosen't hurt and it is actually fun to go out riding now'

As I posted above, her biting is now restricted to 'need' she craves attention and if you ignore her for any length of time, she will deliberately nip you, same when she is waiting for dinner, if you happen to walk past her, she will snake and nip in impatience, if you walk past her in the field, she will do the same as your mare in that she will follow and if you don't stop to pet her, she snakes and nips to get you to stop.

Circusdancer - I do the same and allow a little 'mileage' to her before reacting as the biting and the nipping are very different, the biting is nasty temper but the nipping is very much attention seeking with her so I always analyse the situation that we are in before reacting to her. The only situation where I would not allow any 'mileage' is if the pony was nasty constantly and did it out of agression rather than play or fright. As long as you get the reaction you want when you chuck a 'fruity' then he is still responding to you as 'boss' and therefore does understand that it is wrong.

If you watch a herd then there will usually be a 'biter' in the group who is usually quite far down the pecking order and very often the youngest of the group. The rest of the group will tolerate it for some time before reacting usually violently, the 'biter' then retreats until he/she feels the need for attention again and so starts biting again. In this way, they learn that any kind of violence attracts attention, it may not be the correct attention but it does generate a reaction from the others so for a while, the 'biter' is the centre of attention. If you apply this to the 'tamed' horse/pony situation then we are exerting the same kind of pressure by reacting when the nipping turns nasty into biting hence circusdancer, your pony goes back to his meek and mild self until the next time.

Did I make any sense at all??? It is early in the morning and I haven't had my 10 cups of caffeine yet!!!

[mara]

How interesting trheard.

I have the same problem with rocky.

He comes to you for attention and the next minute he trys to bite you. Propper bitting. He can lick your hands for ages and then, comes the bitting. You try to stroke him and after a few strokes, comes the bitting. Walk along you in the field, and suddently, the bitting.

He doesn't trust people and has a bit of a fobia when touching his face.
But he can be a real sweethard at the same time.

He really crabs attention and love, but then he can accepted and give it back.

I have had his back checked and he must has being in pain while riding due to ill fitting saddles and too heavy people on him. Hi is under 14h. So, as he was a riding school pony, he associates people with pain.
The problem on his face may be due to too hard handleling as he can be difficult when leading and hi is very strong with his face.


However he hasn't been ridden since I got him 7 weeks ago, but his behabiour is still bad.

He sounds just as Spice although he is good at grooming, which he loves and no problem with rugs. He is unrug as living out 24/7 and nice winter coat. Good to cacht but not lo lead as he burges as well.

It is something I can't understand. He comes to you, I give him love and care and the next second he can be so nusty. It relly breaks my hart as he is no happy like that. And he grabs attention and love but he doesn't know how to receive.

[potnoodle]

I have tryed giving a shocking reaction (making a loud noise and jumping) and it seems to be working very well. Thanks for all the advise!!!

[holi]

I had a horse that would try to nip when led in. I followed Richard Maxwells advice and as we walked along and he went to nip I just elbowed him (I know that sounds bad but it wasn't). He was so shocked as he didn't know where it came from and I just caried on without fuss (happened in seconds) that after a few times he stopped. Don't know if something on these lines would work.