interesting article in H&H

[holi]

very interesting article in this weeks H&H on stress and head position in riding. Apparently most horses can take 200gm pressure on reins before stress levels rise and rollkur raises cortisol levels in saliva but not heart rate. What was disturbing though was that riders can exert up to 5kg on the reins when using rollkur!!!

Also says that applying two aids - rein and leg - raises stress levels as horses are confused.

Though provoking.

[sharonh]

I remember being told some years ago that a well known instructor used to tell their pupils to use dumbbells to strengthen their biceps so that they could take a proper hold on the reins

[marychick]

Nice to hear something like that being published in such a mainstream magazine. Kind of makes me want to feel what 200gs of pressure is though. Still sounds like an awful lot of pressure for something as sensitive as the mouth and tongue but it's hard to imagine what 200g feels like?

Interesting about the leg and hand together. I wonder if that was just tested with the rider kicking on and pulling back at the same time (i.e sending conflicting messages) as opposed to if the leg and hand were working together to clarify if that makes sense?

[mandal]

Yes, I'd like to know what 200gm is. Re the hand and leg, in my understanding a horse has to be taught to accept/understand rein connection (for want of a better word) first. Contact is the commonly used word I believe.

[marychick]

I was thinking more for turns and lateral movements etc (not necessarily dressage) at a basic level when the horse is still learning that it can be useful to direct the head with one direct rein (usually in a dually and never a pull) and use a leg to direct the quarters or back end. All done quietly of course this has never seemed to cause upset in my experience and can actually be helpful to explain more clearly? Just pondering ;D.....

[Kelly Marks]

We'll have to get an IH ReinsO'Measure or what ever it's called! Rosie and I met Gemma Pearson (who wrote this article) when we were in Australia at Andrew McLeans. I write up more about it in the next IH mag!

[Catrin]

200g is a tiny amount of pressure, especially shared between two hands.

If you have scales like mine, press on the top with a finger of each hand and you can see how little you need to press, in order to move the scale dial 200g.

Now to feel what it is like to the horse, place your hand palm up and press down until you register zero. Then press with one finger of your other hand and get the scales to move a further 200g. Surprised? I was.

Try to get just 100g with one finger pressing on your hand. You can hardly feel it, yet two hands at 100g, give the horse the feel of 200g. So little amount of pressure is really hard to achieve.

[sharonh]

To teach drivers how to hold the reins for a four in hand there is a gadget that has the reins going through a hole in a wooden board with weights tied to the end of them. I suppose if you tied some thing weighing 200gms on the end and then gauged how much pressure it took to move it, it would give you some idea.
As an old person, is 200gms about 1/2 lb?

[mandal]

Thanks catrin, I'll try that. Glad gm is weight not G force.

Marychick, I was just babbling generally at my basic level.

[sharonh]

I wonder how much the type of bit you use influences the amount of pressure? I would guess that a thin bit would concentrate the pressure more?
Do they mean 200gms in each rein I wonder or between both, it doesn't say in the article.
I've just put two meat pies in the oven and they weighed 200grms each, my husband thought I'd lost it as I walked around the kitchen balancing them on different parts of my hands!

[nich]

"Hands without legs, legs without hands" - or something similar - is what Derek Clark taught us - makes sense.

[Pony-Nutt]

Both aids at once is called 'riding in opposition' if you google that there may be more information.
Something that drives me insane is two lots of noise on in the house especially in the same room. Like the telly and the radio it really makes me unable to think. Wonder if riding in opposition has the same effect on the horse?

[marychick]

hmmm I suppose it's how you look at it. To me riding in opposition is something like pulling back and kicking on at the same time which is definitely a bug bear of mine must be very confusing for the horse. The telly and the radio would be conflicting messages in a similar way. I haven't read the article so I was just curious what their definition was. I'd love to read the original study!

We do not just communicate through our hands when we are riding, we are constantly giving signals through our body or legs all the time whether we realise it or not. It doesn't matter how good a rider you are this will be happening. Although Phillipe Karl teaches legs without hands and hands without legs he also teaches to weight the seat in the direction of a turn. This is still 2 aids at the same time. In western they use their legs to turn all the time as well as the reins to a much smaller degree- and have you seen those horses turn??? If I can use my legs to help explain something rather than putting more pressure down the reins then I will. That's just my opinion though, it works for me and the horses I ride so thats fine, I'm not saying everyone else needs to do it ;D

Going home to find some scales now

[Deleted]

THe point of hand without leg, leg without hand isn't that you can't use a rein and leg together to ask for a turn (because left rein and right leg aren't in opposition to eachother, they both ak for different parts of the horse to turn) it's that you shouldn't be "riding the horse forwards into the contact" in the sense of both legs on while holding the horse's head in.

I think 200g is a funny measure to use - given that pressure is normally measured in pounds PER SQUARE INCH. The impact on the horse varies depending on the size of the mouthpiece, whether the noseband takes any of the contact, and whether they're talking about 200g per rein or 200g in total. If you knotted your reins and put 200g weight on them the horse would fell less pressure than if you put 200g on each rein.

Lol @ sharon and the pies

[marychick]

Jan 3, 2013 11:44:48 GMT 1 @michellep said:

THe point of hand without leg, leg without hand isn't that you can't use a rein and leg together to ask for a turn (because left rein and right leg aren't in opposition to eachother, they both ak for different parts of the horse to turn) it's that you shouldn't be "riding the horse forwards into the contact" in the sense of both legs on while holding the horse's head in.

hehe thanks Michelle you always manage to explain what I'm trying to say far more eloquently than I could!! ;D

I agree that they've probably oversimplified by saying "200g" of pressure as this would feel very different in different bits and with the pressure applied from different angles. I wonder if this oversimplification was a result of the magazine's write up or if the study itself is that limited?

Still, if it gets people thinking about how hard they're pulling their horses in the mouth it's still a good thing! ;D