Chifney bit- discussion

[kt with Hanni]

Hi,

Currently doing some volunteer work for an animal charity. Was wondering what your thoughts were on Chifney bits? I've never used or come across them before. People I have spoken to say they are good for strong horses but must be used correctly or can do severe damage. What are your views as IH people? Not sure how I feel about it really even used in the appropriate way... Just wondered whether the dually would be just as good? I used dually with my bolshey pony and now he is great!

Thoughts?

[tikkatonks]

There is a thread on this subject on H+H that you might be interested in

www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=505345

In my view like many gadgets they can be used and abused. I would like to think that my horse's mouth is so important for our ridden work I would hate to damage it. I have used a chifney in the past but would consider it a last resort now.

Last year I needed a dually to lead my horse to the field, at the moment I have stopped using it. I guess in difficult circumstances I may use it again but hope that our relationship has reached the point where I don't need it on a regular basis.

[jennyb]

I have used on before and wouldn't hesitate again. Frustrated horses on box rest who start rearing and bucking whilst hand walking are a danger, and where duallys and snaffles fail to retain control, then I won't hesitate to reach for a chifney if needed! In fact, when Cosworth was going out of his mind on box rest once, an RA actually told me to use a chifney if it kept us safe! My normally well mannered boy was a nightmare, through sheer frustration. It was not a question of training, he was perfectly trained under normal circumstances.

I do not agree with strong gadgets like this being a substitute for good training though. They should only be used in extreme circumstances by very experienced handlers.

[Deleted]

I used to have to use one from time to time when I worked at a livery yard - as Jennyb says - for horses on box rest where they're out of their mind with boredom and too much energy, not because they don't know how to lead nicely. Two horses spring to mind..

One 17hh gelding on box rest for 6 months. Normally led like a dope on a rope. WHe on BR I tried to lead him to the walker or back and he would rear up and lunge at me, then buck and kick out if I dropped back out of the way of his fronts. I had him cantering down the yard, doing passage, rearing, bucking etc in a halter. Put the chiffney on and he walked sensibly - energetically but sensibly. TBH I doubt a dually would have worked on him because it wasn't about training, he knew how to lead nicely and his acrobatics were really dangerous for me and him.

One was a mare I'd never met before, again on box rest, had to go out for 10 minute in hand walk. She jogged most of the way getting more and more worked up, I was being really careful to use pressure and release as gently as I could then the horses in the field we were walking alongside trotted to the gate, she reared up, spun and bolted. I found her back at the yard with her tongue and lip all split and bleeding badly.

I wouldn't choose to use one instead of training, and I think you have to see how the horse reacts to it, the first horse I mentioned never even needed a contact on it because he respected it so it worked very well to keep us safe when he was really boiling over, but if the horse doesn't show respect to it then it's useless and dangerous.

[jennyb]

Good point Michelle. Cosworth reacted really well to the chifney, I never had to put any pressure on it. I tried one on Gazdag when he was rearing vertically and boxing whilst being lead out on box rest, and it made him rear more! So I had to find another solution for him.

[anastasia55555]

In desperate measures i would consider it but dont think i could not seek alternatives over a long period of time, i.e. Work out why the problems are occurring etc.

[donnalex]

I recently heard about a 'stallion halter' which apparently has a metal noseband. It sounds remarkably similar to a serretta to me but without the jagged metal edge.
I would be reluctant to use a chifney myself as I think that using a horses mouth to forcefully control it will make riding and communicating lightly with it more or less impossible. How could you expect them to respond to a light hand after they have been handled with something really harsh in their mouth?
If I was really stuck Id try to find one of these stallion halters or even use a padded serretta before I would risk ruining a horses mouth as once it has learnt to ignore the mouth or 'take it' it would not be nice to ride or at least beyond my capabilities as a rider to make it nice to ride.
Having said that if I had to choose between not getting control of a dangerous horse when its welfare or my life depended on it or using a chifney Id use the chifney!

[BJMM]

I had problems loading Blaze for eighteen months. She would get so far, then just lock her big chunky neck and tootle off at a steady trot, she wasn't dangerous, just saying ' no thanks, not loading today, back to my stable I think' and because she is built like the proverbial brick s**t house, there wasn't much I could do, even with a Dually, so I popped a Chifney on (feeling bad about it ) and instantly she walked perfectly next to me, straight into the lorry, without my ever having to engage the Chifney!
I used it for a while, then gradually moved to the Dually, now have few problems but I would resort to using it again if she started to use her strength against me.

[KimT]

I have used one before. Once again on a horse for box rest. My first horse injured herself. She was quite bargy anyway and would happily rear and bolt off on a normal day but after a couple of months on box rest it was finally time to turn her out. She hated being stabled! To turn her out I had to walk her down a road which joined a main road at the bottom so for her and my saftey I turned her out in a chiffeny for the first 4 days (it was winter so in at night) until she calmed down.

I would not use one for day to day training but would in extreme circumstances.

[penny70]

I too agree that a chifney is no substitute for training, but also know that they can be invaluable when handling certain horses in certain circumstances.
My old mare (16.2hh IDxTB, 750kg, and knew how to use it) would normally lead like a lamb, but when she was in season, she could be difficult to say the least. At the yard she was kept at, the walk from field to yard was about 500metres down a track taking you past about 5 other fields with various horses of various types in. Normally walking past these fields was interesting, as some of the other horses were very excitable and would gallop up to the fence to say hello - Penny would on a normal day be absolutely cool about this - she'd look, but keep walking in a mannerly way. However when in season, she'd turn into 3/4 of a ton of whirling dervish. Tried various types of headcollar or halter, including the dually, none of which would help her behaviour at all.
As a last resort, having been nearly flattened a couple of times, I tried her in a chifney. Transformation. Without having to put any pressure on it at all, Penny went from scary to sensible - yes she was still keen, but instead of leaping and spinning, she'd be doing a jig-jog walk with no sign of anything worse. So after that, when she was in season I'd use the chifney to lead her, for the safety of us both.
So yes, they can cause terrible damage in the wrong hands, and I don't think they should be used in place of training, but they are a useful tool in certain circumstances.

[lawyerbunny]

Agree with those who say it can be potentially damaging, but a useful tool when used appropriately and in the right hands, but only then. Twig arrived with one for loading - never ever thankfully had to use it.

Jan 6, 2012 7:28:25 GMT 1 @donnalex said:

I would be reluctant to use a chifney myself as I think that using a horses mouth to forcefully control it will make riding and communicating lightly with it more or less impossible. How could you expect them to respond to a light hand after they have been handled with something really harsh in their mouth?

Found this interesting - though those who say they've used one say they've had to use little/no pressure on it at all. Putting pressure on a horse's mouth in a chiffney must be pretty severe... I do wonder whether handling a horse in a chiffney doesn't just make the horse 'numb' to contact in its mouth, but affect the rider's mind too - might a rider who uses pressure via a chiffney expect the horse to be 'numb', or to 'require' a much stronger contact when ridden? So a sort of vicious circle of horse getting pressure and desensitising to it, rider expecting it to need pressure, finding it numb to it and using more? Slightly o/t, sorry

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2012 14:28:34 GMT 1 lawyerbunny said:

Putting pressure on a horse's mouth in a chiffney must be pretty severe... I do wonder whether handling a horse in a chiffney doesn't just make the horse 'numb' to contact in its mouth, but affect the rider's mind too - might a rider who uses pressure via a chiffney expect the horse to be 'numb', or to 'require' a much stronger contact when ridden? So a sort of vicious circle of horse getting pressure and desensitising to it, rider expecting it to need pressure, finding it numb to it and using more? Slightly o/t, sorry

As with everything it's how it's used Yes I'm sure you could make a horse numb to the bit by hanging off a chiffney but someone who hangs off a chiffney doesn't IMO fall into the category of "experienced and competent" and I would never ever suggest a novice uses one.

In the case of the first horse I mentioned, when not on box rest he was competing at BD Elementary and I think in a basic snaffle, and he wasn't a plod so I think it's fair to assume he accepted the bit and worked nicely in it when ridden.

[lawyerbunny]

Yep, agree michelle - I'm not saying everyone that uses a chiffney has that view, but those who do exert pressure, and whether that might change their view of how their horses respond to pressure. Do think they should only be used by those who are experienced. Sorry if that's not clear, I'm not bashing everyone who's ever used one!

[mandal]

The thing with chiffneys I believe is that to some extent it doesn't matter how light the handler is the horse can still spook and exert pressure.

I've no experience of them and have only seen them used at a Klaus F.Hempfling demo. By owners/handlers I hasten to add. The horses (stallions) all walked with their heads in the sky and mouths open. I felt very strongly that they were controlled by fear of pain alone so the question I ask is how 'ethical' or productive is it to use them for more than once or twice? The stallions I saw weren't imo happy or relaxed and what had they actually learned that was useful to the handlers really?
Imo chiffneys are an implement of control only, not for training or learning, except that they can hurt. They allow horses to be managed but the danger here for me is that they become necessary/easy and the horses whole management isn't reviewed in line with what is the best option for the horse. Things like stabling and box rest aren't questioned for example.

[Deleted]

Absolutely lawyerbunny, no offence taken! It's a subject close to my heart as I really did not want to use a chiffney for either of those horses, so it's a discussion I'm finding really interesting

Jan 6, 2012 15:30:32 GMT 1 mandal said:

The thing with chiffneys I believe is that to some extent it doesn't matter how light the handler is the horse can still spook and exert pressure. .

Yep, as my horse number 2 demonstrated it can have horrid consequences.

Jan 6, 2012 15:30:32 GMT 1 mandal said:

I've no experience of them and have only seen them used at a Klaus F.Hempfling demo. By owners/handlers I hasten to add. The horses (stallions) all walked with their heads in the sky and mouths open. .

My horse No.1 plodded along with his head low, mouth shut, appeared very mellow and walked on a slack line. No.2 had her head up and played with the bit, though I'm certain in a halter her head would also have been right up.

Jan 6, 2012 15:30:32 GMT 1 mandal said:

I felt very strongly that they were controlled by fear of pain alone so the question I ask is how 'ethical' or productive is it to use them for more than once or twice? .

In my case I don't know how the chiffneys had been used by others before me so it's down to the imagination whether horse No.1 was mellow because he'd tried fighting it and lost or whether he just respected a bit more than nose pressure. I don't doubt the fear of pain plays a part in it's effectiveness for a lot of horses, which ethically I'm not comfortable with. I tried leading horse 1 without a chiffney but found that ethically wrong too - because his owner had paid good money for an operation and full livery to nurse her horse better and I was there potentially ruining it by letting him rear, buck and canter on concrete, not to mention the impact on the horse if he damaged his injured legs further.

Jan 6, 2012 15:30:32 GMT 1 mandal said:

They allow horses to be managed but the danger here for me is that they become necessary/easy and the horses whole management isn't reviewed in line with what is the best option for the horse. Things like stabling and box rest aren't questioned for example.

I suppose there's always going to be split opinion on whether box rest is ethical, but especially in situations like mine, at livery, the owner has the right to decide for their own horse and they then have a responsibility to make sure others handling their horse aren't risking life and limb when doing so.