arki
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Post by arki on Dec 24, 2011 7:21:14 GMT 1
My haflinger has always been a pain to tie up on the yard - he is impatient and starts pawing the ground and being generally rude. I have done all the perfect manners training with him - being many years ago - but it doesn't seem to make any difference. I have always got over this problem by giving him a haynet but recently even this doesn't work. Has anyone any suggestions? I think this is made even more obvious that my other 2 ponies that are rescues (for different reasons) are brilliant they stand tied up happily waiting for a brush and fuss or whatever else I need to do. I don't have a stable that I can easily use so I can't put him in there - he hates being in a stable anyway. Would love to know if anyone else has had this problem. It doesn't help that it makes everyone else get rather fed up with him as he has recently trashed the outside of a stable by kicking it and pushing the door in!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2011 17:46:32 GMT 1
It sounds either like worry from a previous experience or simply that he doesn't know how to stand still, and is working himself up as a result. Either way, you need to take some time, get him working with you and make sure he understands step by step what you want of him and that it's ok.
First, go back to your Perfect Manners exercises and really get his attention on you. Practice leading and moving around - whatever you have space to do - on the yard so you are making it clear that the same structure applies here as elsewhere. Include in your exercises just plain old standing still. Don't tie him, just ask him to stand still anywhere on the yard. I'd start away from his usual tie up point where he has associations of stress and then work towards standing still there too.
Once he can do that, then teach him to ground tie there. It's exactly the same as standing still with you holding his line except that you're not! Remember to keep everything tiny to start off with, so easier for him to do, and remember to be generous with your praise, praising every little attempt on his part to do the right thing. You should then be able to drop his line on the floor, step back and count to 5 secs, then 10, then building up, before you go back and tell him just how brilliant he is.
If you have a problem with that, then you'll possibly need to break things down even smaller, or do more work in a different place first.
Then, when he can stand still ground tied at his tie up point, he should be able to do the same with the line through the ring. However, he may see the line and flip back into his prior behaviour automatically. If that happens, then again break down the action of putting the line through the ring, take it out, put it through and step back, etc. so you're showing him it's the same.
If at any point he starts to fidget or move, just put him back where he was, wait a couple of seconds, then praise and walk him off, so releasing the pressure. The key is never to ask more than he can do.
Even once he has learned, keep an eye on any lapses and don't automatically assume that he should know now.
If that doesn't help, call out your RA. There may be more going on that we're aware of.
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arki
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Post by arki on Dec 24, 2011 19:29:02 GMT 1
Thanks Liz for your response. Tbh I think he just doesn't like being tied up - I have had him 9 years and he has never been great. He is not a stressy type so not sure it is that. I will try the perfect manners exercises again and see if that helps - it just makes it really difficult if you want to bring him to even brush him. He is the same when you tack him up - he just wants to get on with it - he enjoys hacking out in company but once the saddle is on he is like come on then lets go. He has a Barrie Swain treeless saddle which he loves (well he should at the cost of it) and I have his back regularly checked so I don't think it is pain related. Thanks again
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2011 19:40:11 GMT 1
There is a reason though, arki. It's like everything we like or don't like - if you think about it there's a reason. Take the seasonal sprout. Loads of people hate them but everyone will have a reason: the taste, the smell, having been force fed them, remembering those dreadful soggy sprouts your gran used to cook...
It's the same with a horse disliking something. It may be lack of education, it may be association with something else, it may be a bad experience, it may be the way we have handled it in the past, etc. Whatever the reason is, though, it'll be there. Whether or not we can find it is another question!
It sounds to me that there is something going on with your chap that's making him stressed. Not blind fear panic, but stressed as in unhappy about things. Approach it from that viewpoint and you're more likely to pick up on the whys.
See if you can really nail those foundation exercises and see if they help and, in doing them and working very slowly, see if he reveals anything else to you at the same time.
Good luck!
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Post by Gail&Merlin on Dec 24, 2011 21:53:28 GMT 1
A reminder for me to revisit some ground work as Dancer has just started getting worse with this too... Thanks for the tips Liz..
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Post by portiabuzz on Dec 26, 2011 23:40:50 GMT 1
Yes now casper has recovered from lami he has been a handful and so have gone back to basics and he now stands (mostly!) Still. Good luck xx
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Post by sophielouise on Dec 26, 2011 23:54:14 GMT 1
Have you tried tying up with two or three lead ropes?
Pete was awful to tie up when I brought up and had quickly worked out he was bigger and stronger than the tie up ring and his lead rope and could pull back once and take himself off to the nearest grass or feed bucket.
The numerous leadropes was recommended to me by my EP - and it really did work, as he couldn't quite work out why he had done his usual trick but was still not free (admittedly, we used three lead ropes as he did break the second one!) - and once he had broken the habit and realised he got more praise and fuss for standing tied up he (rarely) tries to free himself any more.
Obviously, I wouldn't recommend it if he or she is genuinely concerned, but I had a second opinion from an IH minded professional assess the situation for me and all agreed it was the best way to break the habit with him - and it was a case of 'shan't - why should I?!' rather than 'Can't or I'm scared too'
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arki
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Post by arki on Dec 27, 2011 8:41:19 GMT 1
Thanks for all your responses - I genuinely dont think he is frightened or stressed. He has always been a bit bolshy but over the years I have managed to sort most things ( I have had since he was 5 just imported from Austria and he is now 14) I know that he was cut really late and he is awful with other horses if he is not put out with them separated by electric fencing for a minimum of a month he runs them ragged. If I was comparing him to a human I would say he is a bit of a bully. It has always been a concern putting other horses out with him due to his behaviour. Could it be that he is just a bully? I find him very difficult to hack out on his own but other stronger riders ( I have had someone ride him who competes at a very high level) find him fine. In company he is perfect. Everyone thinks he is just mannerless and a bully which makes him not very liked. It doesn't massively matter as I am the only one that looks after mine. Is it possible that he is just a bully with me?
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Post by jill on Dec 27, 2011 9:02:09 GMT 1
Also be very careful that you aren't reinforcing stressy behaviour by soothing him or otherwise giving him attention. A bit like a dog that jumps up all the time, ignore the unwanted behaviour, even by walking away if you can, and only go and brush, feed etc while he is quiet. He will learn that to get the attention he needs to stand quietly, and eventually that will become his default position. I take it he does have a haynet when he is tied up? To begin with at least that gives them something else to focus on other than the fact that they are tied up.
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arki
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Post by arki on Dec 27, 2011 9:11:19 GMT 1
Yes he has a hay net when tied up - it is difficult to ignore him as the yard that I am at (well it is more of a field with outbuildings) is quite run down and the last time he was in he managed to destroy the door of one of the stables that I use for storage! I am going to try tying him up outside his field as there is nothing he can damage there and the fencing has all been replaced by me so I know it is safe!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2011 9:27:10 GMT 1
Sorry, arki, but the more you write the more I think you need help on the ground. I don't go along with ideas like him being a bit of a bully (or maybe I do, if you stop to think that even bullies have reasons for being like that). Until you see this problem though his eyes, you will not solve it. You may find ways of managing it - e.g. by tying him up in the field - but you will not have actually addressed the problem.
Every single horse I have worked with has had a reason for its behaviour. Many more horses are stressed/worried about life than we realise. Very often, putting their behaviour down to being naughty, being a bully, trying it on, etc. just makes it worse as those around us see a "bad" horse and treat him as such. Yes, this "bad" behaviour can become a habit, but it has to come from somewhere in the first place.
I agree with Jill, by the way, about being careful how you reinforce.
As I said at the end of my first post, if going back to basics won't help, then call out an RA. There is potential for someone to get hurt here, including your horse. Also, if he is unhappy, then surely it needs to be sorted out for his sake?
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arki
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Post by arki on Dec 27, 2011 9:42:43 GMT 1
Thanks Liz - it is a shame that Sue Palmer (Brown) is not closer to me because she has worked with him before and she really got him - I do have another RA near me but not sure she is the right person for him - I don't want to say anymore on here. I will have to have a look and see who is the closest to me - Liz you don't happen to cover Bucks do you??
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Post by taklishim on Dec 27, 2011 14:46:39 GMT 1
Is it possible that he is just a bully with me? I should think that is very possible. One of mine is a haffy and your posts describe him perfectly. He can be a real bully boy. He is not in the slightest upset or worried. Stressy is the last word to describe him. He can do any number of ground work exercises perfectly. He is simply a master at judging the person in front of him. Provided the handler is strong (gives him very clear messages as to who is in charge) he is great. He does however search out the slightest chink in the handler and if he finds it then he can only be described as a bully. He takes the maximum advantage of any situation he is in. I have no problems and he always knows which one of us is in charge. . I've watched others handle him and he sums them up in an instant. Any sign of weakness and he is in his element! Where many horses would co-operate and help the handler (or at least not be difficult) he can't wait to get one over on you. He is not in the slightest nasty about it. His whole agenda is "ME" ;D ;D As long as I'm wideawake and mentally strong riding him he is great. Otherwise he takes advantage of a rider. On the other hand when I have got into really dangerous situations in rivers etc I have let him take charge and he has pulled out all the stops. I think they are probably quite intelligent as a breed and get bored pretty easily. Give them something difficult and they are great. I don't think they are all like that but having seen a few I suspect that they could be very easily. Al part of the charm of being a haflinger. ;D
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Post by shan on Dec 28, 2011 1:36:57 GMT 1
Re groundwork... when I first found IH I had John Jones come out to help me with my other horse who wouldn't stand still for more than about a minute! John suggested tying him for under the amount of time it would take him to get bored/restless, and then walk him round (or do some exercises with him) before he decided to move himself, then tie him back up. It took some time but before too long I could 'pretend' tie him for any amount of time by draping the longline over the gate. If he wandered or spooked I could just bring him back and he'd stand again.
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