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Post by welly on Jul 20, 2010 16:07:41 GMT 1
Those of you who have come across Dr. Deb Bennett will recognise the term "braced" which she means any mucles that are tensed. A tense muscle can't work correctly and if a horse is worked with a lot of tense muscles then sooner or later there will be some problem with soundness.
Regarding riding the young horse, my horse will happily trot along with his nose touching the ground, both on the lunge and ridden (riding the headless and neckless horse which is rather disconcerting) and I have the devil of a job to get him moving from the back end. This is partly down to conformation.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 20, 2010 16:11:18 GMT 1
This business of how the horse's back actually works is still only quite vaguely understood, which leads to some raging arguments around the world, lol!. To begin with, most of the research, if not all, has been done on top dressage horses (on the basis they represent the 'best' trained). That, in itself, is a major flaw in the methodology (though an understandable mistake). For example, the scientific view is that piaffe (the trot on the spot) doesn't have a moment of suspension. That's certainly true if you measure what competition dressage horses do...
According to a very well respected equine anatomy lecturer friend of mine (who is also a high level trainer), the way a horse's muscles are actually interconnected is so complex and so unlike human anatomy that it's impossible to say "this muscle does that". They are so tightly bundled with connective tissue in reality that they don't really look anything like the pictures in the anatomy books - and every individual horse works a little bit differently.
The phrase "on the forehand" also has multiple interpretations. To one group it is a question of physics and is determined by the elevation (or otherwise) of the head and neck. Another group judges it by the degree of engagement (or otherwise) of the hind legs. You actually need a bit of both. You can get a horse to engage its legs forward under the mass with the head low, but there won't be any (additional) weight on the hind end. It's also where you return to if you have to correct bad training. The long and low work is where you begin in order to encourage the topline muscles to relax and release. To develop the horse you have to put load on the haunches, which requires elevation. But elevation done incorrectly causes a different set of problems all of it's own.
To do good training you don't need to know the scientific answers, though. You only need to know how to ask the horse 'balance questions' (use the aids in complete lightness, in other words) and let him figure out the answers in the way that suit his own body best. That's what good classical work has always been about.
Derek
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Post by HolsBols on Jul 20, 2010 16:12:45 GMT 1
OK another question If my horse and I are happy in our partnership, we have no issues (tho many others do with my horse ) she is now in her teenage years and i plan to do nothing more than simply hack around for the rest of her rideable life and then let her retire gracefully as and when she wants... is riding in an outline still as important??
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 20, 2010 16:20:27 GMT 1
Holsbols asked:
Easy peasy...
No, if you're not going to make major demands of her it isn't important at all. Making sure you aren't forcing her into a set posture in any way will be much more useful ;D
Derek
[mta] you might still want to choose to learn how to do it for your own interest & development as a rider, though, but that would be a whole different story and just for the fun of it.
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Post by HolsBols on Jul 20, 2010 16:25:29 GMT 1
Thank you Derek, You've made me feel much happier heehee ;D
Would love to see picture examples of correct posture etc... and tbh id rather see it from people on here rather than research it myself because i want to see examples of it done PROPERLY rather than with the use of gadgets etc...
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Post by welly on Jul 20, 2010 16:30:45 GMT 1
At least if we are all plodding around on a long rein our horses' muscles are relaxed!
"To do good training you don't need to know the scientific answers, though. You only need to know how to ask the horse 'balance questions' (use the aids in complete lightness, in other words) and let him figure out the answers in the way that suit his own body best. That's what good classical work has always been about. "
Again, Derek, a very, very good point! Thanks.
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Post by tomrabbit on Jul 20, 2010 16:30:56 GMT 1
Thank you Derek, You've made me feel much happier heehee ;D Would love to see picture examples of correct posture etc... and tbh id rather see it from people on here rather than research it myself because i want to see examples of it done PROPERLY rather than with the use of gadgets etc... Me too!
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Post by tomrabbit on Jul 20, 2010 16:44:44 GMT 1
Also, can someone please explain what 'long and low' means, or better still, post a picture? I keep hearing this expression, but I don't understand it.
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Post by basilhorse on Jul 20, 2010 16:46:20 GMT 1
Sorry pic didn't work before. Here it is
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Post by donnalex on Jul 20, 2010 16:59:40 GMT 1
I have an uphill battle with this. Literally! Alex bum is 1 1/2 inch higher than his withers so even just getting him to ride level means he is trying really hard. But I know he really uses his back end as he should mostly as each time we go for physio check she always always comments on his fantastic back end. He uses it naturally quite well himself so I am lucky but even so we have to work harder than other combinations with better conformation to ahcieve the same thing.
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Post by HolsBols on Jul 20, 2010 17:00:49 GMT 1
Ok i can almost see what you mean, the horse almost looks like its stood downhill...?? A few peoples opinions on the horses posture and what draws to that conclusion would be useful
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blueali
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water horse vs. land horse
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Post by blueali on Jul 20, 2010 17:34:16 GMT 1
Just wrote loads and explorer crashed! My favourite analogy is of a bow (as in bow and arrow) for a horses back. The 'stick' is stronger when flexed up which is achieved by attaching a cord to either end. The cord is similar to the horses belly muscles. The type of outline depends on the discipline and its purpose. A western reining horse is very 'on the bit' (except they aren't because they are in self carriage with long reins), so it can do movements which require extreme engagement of quarters. A western pleasure horse has a straight line from back to neck, it must also work very hard (I think a bit like pilates!) as they must have a long, very smooth stride. My favourite is trail which is somewhere in between as we need extreme manouvreability and halt-lope-halt but not such explosive power. Here is a picture of Blue as a young whippersnapper On the forehand. Here is Blue kindly demonstrating the weaknessess of a hollow back. I think you can see how limiting this is to manouvring. Here she is kind of demonstraing 'long and low' as a warm down I think (again very old video) And 2 videos of her in a pessoa - can you tell which is earlier? Explain why?
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Post by mandal on Jul 20, 2010 17:40:37 GMT 1
To do good training you don't need to know the scientific answers, though. You only need to know how to ask the horse 'balance questions' (use the aids in complete lightness, in other words) and let him figure out the answers in the way that suit his own body best. That's what good classical work has always been about. Derek Now that sounds like my kind of training! ;D
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 20, 2010 17:48:36 GMT 1
Doh! I've just spent 20 minutes trying (and failing) to get a picture to upload, so a description will have to do for now.
Long and low is a term that's used to describe allowing the horse to walk or trot on a free rein with his neck extended forwards. It's used in the early stages of training as a stretching exercise and in the later stages of training as a 'breather' between bouts of harder work that tire out either the muscles used for elevation of the neck or collection of the hind end (or both).
The important points are that the horse is moving forward purposefully with the majority of the push coming from the hind end rather than pulling himself along with his forelegs. A simple indicator is that you should feel a good breeze on your face (at the walk!).
The aim is to help the topline muscles to relax and lengthen and also the brachiocephalicus (which are the ones down the front/underside of the neck). The horse's head will find it's own level and the lower edge of the neck is generally about horizontal when viewed from the side. If the neck is slopping down to the ground (known as 'rolling a peanut',lol!) then the gait is insufficiently energetic. The horse carries his head forward and out as a direct consequence (counterbalance) of the push from behind.
Derek
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Post by Mellymoo on Jul 20, 2010 18:06:52 GMT 1
This is a very informative thread! Jos does long and low of his own accord when we are riding, and once he warms up he really goes from behind - it is an amazing feeling! I do find that he goes best when I ride on a loosish rein.
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