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Post by tikkatonks on Jul 20, 2010 19:08:28 GMT 1
Great thread...
I think that if you have ridden a horse that is working from behind and trully 'on the bit' it is such a fantastic feeling you will always want to aim to ride that way.
I actually find it quite frightening riding unschooled horses that cannot go 'on the bit' even if they are happy hackers who are suitable for novices, I just don't feel in control or comfortable.
Not sure how scientifically accurate some of the information you read about hollow vs outline really is, I used to ride a jumping pony that was so hollow she was virtually inverted and had a ewe neck, she lived into her 30s and I won a jumping class on her at 28.
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Post by heather on Jul 20, 2010 19:08:58 GMT 1
Also, can someone please explain what 'long and low' means, or better still, post a picture? I keep hearing this expression, but I don't understand it. An excellent pic of long and low, correctly executed by German classical trainer, Anja Beran Heather
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Post by heather on Jul 20, 2010 19:14:02 GMT 1
Working on the bit also ensures that the rider, not the horse is in control. I would have been very dead, of that I am certain, when 16 years ago, I was riding a big ex racehorse, Rees, that I had been reschooling, round the back of our village. Our Devon lanes are deeply dug out between banks with nowhere to go if a car comes fast, except for a few pull ins to allow cars to pass.
This day, not a car, but a school bus came ripping round a corner. Had Rees not been on the bit, and responded instantly to my aid to leg yield into the slight pull in, we would both have been under that bus. As it is, my stirrup scraped the bus the whole way down, and I can still see the horrified faces of the children.
Yes, I also ride my horses on slack reins out hacking, as long as they are not bracing the muscle on the underside of the neck, because if so, the horse can lock it and bolt at the drop of a hat, not nice, either for you or other road users.
Heather
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Post by tomrabbit on Jul 20, 2010 19:18:53 GMT 1
Thanks Derek and Heather! I think I've got a way to go yet, and I'm about to explode with information overload! Tikkatonks, I know what you mean, I have only felt my pony work truly on the bit a couple of times, and it is an amazing feeling, it just felt effortless, like floating, and at the end of it he wasn't huffing and puffing or even sweating, despite having done a lot of work ... but now I WANT IT EVERY TIME and I can't get it!!! (Boo hoo, I so want to be a better rider . ) Like Donnalex, I have the problem that my pony is bum high, and add to that I bought him green, and I'm not an accomplished rider... no wonder we struggle. Sorry to hijack your thread Holsbols.
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Post by heather on Jul 20, 2010 19:22:15 GMT 1
Whereabouts in Scotland are you tomrabbit?
Heather
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Post by tomrabbit on Jul 20, 2010 19:34:03 GMT 1
Have PMd you Heather.
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Post by arabmania on Jul 20, 2010 21:08:18 GMT 1
then there are the most athletic horses who endure miles and miles across all terrain carrying riders. nothing on the bit here........... mine are ridden for miles and miles (touch wood) i have never ever had an injury. Attachments:
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Post by Dragonmaster on Jul 20, 2010 22:27:01 GMT 1
then there are the most athletic horses who endure miles and miles across all terrain carrying riders. nothing on the bit here........... mine are ridden for miles and miles (touch wood) i have never ever had an injury. I think, and you are the expert on Arabians so correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Arabians made somewhat differently from other horses, high head and tail carriage is normal for them. I have heard they have shorter backs and one less set of ribs - but that could be old wives tales. In any case, where high head and tail carriage would normally include a hollow back and the whole spine curved concave (like a smile) perhaps in Arabians the back is flexed convex (like a frown) even when the head and tail are carried high.
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Post by heather on Jul 20, 2010 22:32:32 GMT 1
My Arabians have always worked on the bit. Here is a photo of my friend Rodrigo da Costa Matos in piaffe on a pure bred Arabian. Heather
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Post by Dragonmaster on Jul 20, 2010 22:40:48 GMT 1
Ah, yes, Heather. I see what you mean. However the Arabian still has a higher head & tail carriage that other types might have. Comparing the 3 photos, yours, Arabmania's and the one of Anja is quite interesting and educational.
So from this I infer that different builds of horse may display differences in 'outline' even when working in the same or similar ways. And we have to realise that the build, type and conformation of a horse will determine how athletic it can be.
Am I rambling here? Am I making any sense? It's been a long, wet night.
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Post by heather on Jul 20, 2010 22:52:50 GMT 1
Tail carriage, yes, but I have never found getting an Arabian to go long and low difficult at all- there are pics of me on my stallion in my book with him going long and low in a headcollar! So yes, they have a naturally high head carriage, but it is not difficult at all to get them to lower and stretch, and it does strengthen the back. The old Crabbet lines had huge ability to 'sit' and engage, just a shame so many Arabians are bred with not enough room for a saddle now, back so straight that they can no long engage and just swing the legs under, hence a flat canter, and heads so extreme that one wonders how long the old phrase 'drinkers of the wind' will be applicable!! Heather
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Post by donnalex on Jul 21, 2010 8:38:15 GMT 1
I have a book somewhere called something like Natural Schooling Methods and in it there are some useful tips for the less technical rider to help their horse work correctly. It is an old fashioned book written before eveyone and their aunty had a menage so very useful. One of the best exercises (because it is easy) is when hacking out slowly allow the horse to have more rein using uphills to get them to stretch down. I use this on the way home when he is a bit tired so less likely to spook and obviously in safe places. Because they are going uphill and they are tired they naturally stretch down and as he does this I use my legs alternately with the swing of the belly (thanks to Heather) to encourage him to take longer steps from underneath. It really works on him so Im sure it must work on them all. It really does help with the topline as this time last year he had none, his back was like a hammock, and now its all back where it should be If you do this regularly out on hacks it stps them from trying to snatch at the bit as often this is done when they are tiring and need a stretch. Dont wait for them to 'ask' allow it often then bring them back onto the bit where you need to be in control and they dont resent being asked to come onto the bit if they get plenty of opportunities to relax in between.
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Post by arabiangem on Jul 21, 2010 8:48:33 GMT 1
I don't know if this point has been raised yet (I've not read the whole thread) but there are also different 'types' of outline. Whilst I want my horses working through from behind and not dropping onto their forehands (something Marygold really struggles with and I have to work on), I want a fair amount of freedom through the neck and head for doing long endurance rides. The pics that heather has posted are perfect examples. They look great, and are clearly working properly, but asking for that level of collection over big distances is quite hard for them.
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Post by HolsBols on Jul 21, 2010 9:07:41 GMT 1
Im glad i started this thread, its really interesting!! From looking at the pictures i seem to ride my horse "long and low", which by someones explanation stretches and relaxes the topline muscles...
Am i right in thinking that this is defferent to "collection"? Although my understanding is that in collection the topline is also relaxed...
The fact that both ways result in the topline being relaxed, is one method better than the other? should we, as riders, always attempt at a bit of both? or should we encourage the relaxation of the top line of any horse we ride regardless of the method above we use? does that make sense?
I ask because a few things people have said has rung a few bells with me... Hols works much better long and low, walk trot canter is done with little contact and generally a free head and she naturally moves herself in that position. Charmer, on the other hand, when i ride him, when we've been working hard (ie what i like to call power trots) he has offered the near vertical head without any prompting and is obviously working in the correct way for him. Obviously i do let him stretch it out also...
Obviously its me riding, so my knowledge on the subject is the same with both horses and like i said previously i seem to ride on instinct... should i be encouraging hols to become more collected and charmer to become mor elong and low... or am i achieving the same results if the overall aim is to relax the topline (which sounds fundamentally important!!)
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Post by HolsBols on Jul 21, 2010 9:10:00 GMT 1
I don't know if this point has been raised yet (I've not read the whole thread) but there are also different 'types' of outline. Whilst I want my horses working through from behind and not dropping onto their forehands (something Marygold really struggles with and I have to work on), I want a fair amount of freedom through the neck and head for doing long endurance rides. The pics that heather has posted are perfect examples. They look great, and are clearly working properly, but asking for that level of collection over big distances is quite hard for them. would love for you to elaborate on how you achieve this any phtos would also be great
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