Misinterpreting horses' annoyance

[blacktent]

I was just thinking how easy it can be for us to misinterpret our horses' reactions. My Arab gelding Zareeba (rising 22, going on 2 - he can still gallop the youngsters into the ground) is the sweetest-natured, easiest horse you could ever wish to handle, apart from one or two quirks, such as the fact that he is so sensitive that I have to be extremely careful grooming him or tacking him up, as he can get quite annoyed if I am even slightly heavy-handed. He also hates being pushed (he would have made a superb polo pony, except that he wouldn't have tolerated being bumped by another horse - he'd simply have avoided them!). I don't see the point of arguing about things which really aren't that important in the grand scheme of things, so I don't do things which annoy him, and in return he does everything I ask of him as long as it's reasonable, so we get along very well.

Anyway, for the last few days we’ve had to keep the horses in because the ground has been so icy and treacherous (visions of sprains or worse abound). Zareeba has been getting a bit grumpy because he wants to be out, and to begin with I thought that was why he grabbed at the back of my jacket and snatched at my arm as I was preventing him from pushing his way out of the stable when I was going in (something he would never normally do, so this was very uncharacteristic – as was the nipping, which would have been very painful if I hadn’t been well padded). Then I realised it was because of my bad manners – instead of simply asking him to go back as I would normally have done, I was so anxious not to let him out into the slippery yard that I’d put my hand on his chest and pushed him back. As I've said, he really hates being pushed and that was why he had reacted with annoyance (‘Don’t do that to me!’). So the next day, and today, I just asked him to step back – and he did, no problem!

No doubt some people might think I should discipline him when he nips at me like that, but what would be the point? What would it prove? I don't need to have such absolute control over my horse that I can't allow him to express his annoyance in such a situation. Imagine that someone is doing something to you that you find painful or uncomfortable, and you're not allowed to let them know that you find it painful or uncomfortable, or to ask them to stop doing it. How would you feel? And why shouldn't a horse feel the same way?

This small incident just brought home to me how easy it is to ignore or overrride our horses' feelings, even when we know better and in most circumstances would not dream of doing so. I gave myself a mental shake, and reminded myself of Charles Kingsley's maxims: Do As You Would Be Done By - Or be Done By As You Did!

[bryony83]

Interesting point blacktent. I have found that demanding that a horse does something only lead to them saying 'no why should I'. Its so easy to get frustrated or focus on the negative and my horse is quick to tell me when I've annoyed her by asking too much.

There is such a fine line between discipline for safety/schooling and punishment. I am finding posistive reinforcement is much greater than negative reinforcement but still have so much to learn about horses I doubt I will ever understand them

[portiabuzz]

very interesting when you consider your horses feelings, as they have long been ignored!

[sarahbing]

Very good point - has made me think! I am definitly guilty of trying to rush through things sometimes and I am aware it puts them on edge. Thank you for this point

[sandy]

This might sound daft, and its just my opinion, but hes just reminding you that its a partnership and he'll respect you if you respect his feelings. When my three year old came to me, for one reason and another, he craved human attention but since hes been turned out with a herd if he doesnt want his bum scratching , he simply takes a step away from me and I know he's not interested. He also swishes his tail, just once, if I faff with his legs while hes eating his tea. I just wait til hes finished his tea and then I get on with whatever I want to do. Mutual respect. Very interesting thread.

[Deleted]

It's lovely to hear of people so in tune with their horses and so respectful - that's why I like IH so much

My newbie is half arab in breed and about 90% arab in personality, he's the same, if I try to make him step back he plants his feet and says 'No!', if I ask gently he does it straight away.

I'm re-starting him and am finding him to be such a lovely little character. I reward him lavishly for any little bit of progress and now whenever I ask something new of him he turns his head towards me waiting for his rub on the forehead!

[lisap]

Couldn't agree more. I find that the brighter the horse/pony, the more upset and/or offended they can be if you ignore their feelings. Equally, there are those ponies (it is *usually* ponies!) who really have little or no patience with their slow witted human partners, and who do more than their fair share of nudging and shoving to hurry things along, and who have no reason to be offended if their human partners occasionally pin their own ears back and wave their heads with teeth bared! (My beloved Badger just goes blind and deaf when I do this though....)

[jennyb]

Gazdag is quite quick to let me know if I offend him. He has quite a highly developed sense of fairness, and gets irritated with me if I do rude things like talk on the phone while I'm in his stable. Unlike Badger, he is mortified if I ever tell him off and plasters himself against the stable wall and looks at me like I am a possessed woman!

[cbc]

Reminds me of a friends mare who came to stay with me having had a foal, to get back into ridden work some years ago. My friend provided me with tack etc but added a thicker numnah, I expect she felt that Connie would appreciate some padding having been out of work etc etc. Connie was a lovely mare no trouble to do stuff with, so I was slightly surprised when she swung her head round when I fastened the girth as this was not in character. So I was careful to watch as I carried on tacking up, took the girth up a hole the other side to a grimace; hmmm. Went round the other side to take up a final hole and got a definite nip.
Something was definitely amiss, so the first thing to do was to ditch the well intentioned numnah for a thinner one. Connie was fine then I checked her previousely well fitted saddle was still ok, and we never looked back. She couldnt have told me any more clearly, and I was glad she did. She never to my knowledge repeated this.

[Kelly Marks]

A couple of years ago, after a bit of a break (not sure if that's relevant or not) I was schooling Pie in an indoor school and he didn't go into canter when I asked (if you've ever seen him you'd know he's normally incredibly light to ride) and I something from my traditional background came up that 'I've got to show him to get a move on when I say' and I gave him a bit of a kick to say go on and he straight away gave a buck back - it made me laugh at the time because it was like a silly tiff friends have - he was saying it was my fault for asking when he wasn't ready - quite right too!

This is quite an 'advanced' thread though because 'generally' people anthropormise too much and the novice owner in my experience 'generally' lets the horse take over too much and I guess that's where the 'don't let them get away with anything' school of thought comes from.

As far as I know Lesley this is subject that Behaviourism doesn't cover but I make sure we discuss it to some extent in our Horse Psychology classes - some horses will know they have certain rights of respect - meaning the people that handle them need quite a high level of education and experience.

[jennyb]

God Kelly, I did the exact same thing with Gazdag! Getting ready for his first prelim test, and he was not great at maintaining the canter. We were schooling one day and he broke canter and for a second I reverted back to my traditional background and thought "No! You bl00dy well canter when you're told" and I gave him a kick and a smack with the whip. The micro second after I had done it, I thought "You idiot, you should not have done that on your home schooled, young, sharp little baby!!" He agreed with me and let rip with three massive bucks, he stopped bucking when he felt me lose my balance a bit. He was quite rightly outraged with my behaviour and was definitely giving me a telling off! Glad it's not just me who has the odd lapse, lol!

I do agree that people anthropormise too much though. Either that or they are just too dominant and never listen to the horse. It's hard to get a happy medium sometimes!

[2 bays & a grey:D]

What an interesting thread and I would think that the majority of us have lapsed in the past, in fact we are all human and we have our annoyances too. I was having problems with Nancy being aggresive towards me, anyone who has read LizP's thread will have seen, I was getting more and more frustrated with her behaviour in the end I snapped and shouted coupled with a slap!! I was not proud but when you are dealt nastiness every day it can become wearing.
Called Liz and I now have a lovely natured horse again (ok she grumps sometimes but I just push her head away (gently) and carry on with what I am doing). It transpired that she was picking up on my frustrations and as Liz said getting in there first. It just shows how tuned in horses are to our feelings. The next day I bounded to her stable all smiles and strokes- the ears went back, I ignored and carried on being the same, no stern voice, just moved her head and she put her happy face on and prompty picked up her bucket ;D. She is so cute!!!!!
Its easy to go back into 'you will do as I say' when you are surrounded by people who behave in that exact way and pressured by peer pressure. I could go into a lot of what goes on on my yard but I will be here all day, however, I would just like to say (smuggly ;D) that when I ask my horses to move over I barely have to touch them whereas I see others using brute force to get them to move

[clara81]

This is slighlty different but it just reminded me about horses communicating two ways. My old horse Dante (RIP) had a reputation for being a right stroppy old so and so before we got him as previous owners had tried to bully him but he knew his own strength. We just learned to deal with his "ways". The funniest thing he did was if I was leading him in from the field and he decided he needed a wee, he would put his nose on the lead rope and tug it, no harder than I would tug it, and I'd stop and he'd stop and have a wee and then just set off again. It was like he was saying "if either of us need to stop we can just tug this thing here".

[peppertop]

When my mare was 4 she spooked at some electric fencing in the field where i was riding her. She had to walk past it evry day to the field and had never bothered about it. I kicked her in a "get on you see it ever damn day" sort of a manner and she promptly put me on the floor! It was so fast it shocked me and I looked up and she was looking at me as if to say that was damn rude! I have never done it again and 9 years later she has never bucked me off. Her sense of fairness and justice is really quite scary! She is one that I think would have ended up in big trouble as she will come straight back at ya with any emotions you give off to her that she thinks are unjustifyed. If she is rude, I can tell her and she will except it, but if not, don't go there!

[jennyb]

Lol, she sounds just like Gazdag! He has the indignant look down to a T. Nothing much changes about his body posture, I can just see it in his eyes and feel the waves of disapproval rolling off him... It's great fun having a super intelligent horse, Gazdag scares me with his cleverness sometimes. He has a good sense of humour too though.