naria
Grand Prix Poster
yet when all books have been read it boils down to the horse, his human & what goes on between them
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Post by naria on Jan 1, 2010 16:15:24 GMT 1
Trouble 'm not a foot expert & I haven't read all the replies but, as you know, Jim had ulcers that werediagnosed & treated this summer. I suspect they were long standing but events over the last few years had made them worse.
Enough waffle. All the years I've had him he's landed on the outside edge of his right hind & had a twist in the step. It was noted on his vetting as a 2yo & no amount of adjustment to the hoof balance fixed it although it became less marked as he got fitter. A few months after his op & GastroGuard (he'd only recently started walking out under saddle) my RI noticed that the twist & loading on the hind had gone - he was consistently putting it down square & pushing off straight! I haven't looked for a while but as far as I'm aware he still is. So what I'm saying, in a roundabout way, is maybe Snip's right hind is a smptom of the problem rather than the cause?
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Trouble
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Post by Trouble on Jan 1, 2010 17:52:12 GMT 1
Oh no, the stressing and bucking and boxwalking is most definitely ulcers. That I'm sure of.
What I need to find out is what is causing the ulcers, because I can honestly say, hand on heart, I have done everything rght RE ulcer prevention management....there is nothing more I can do without somehow creating a clinical environment wher all factors were totally controlled - which is impossible!
I've been thinking it all over today...summer 2008 he should have been badly behaved if it was carry over from the ulcers then....but he was perfect. His paces were gorgeous.
After getting the ulcers again at the end of 2008 his paces have never really reappeared...I changed farriers in February 2009 and have had that farrier since.
last week I was talking to the friend who introduced me to her farrier and she said that she had changed because farrier had allowed her horses heels to collapse and he's been lame for 6 months now. It did concern me when she told me and I'd planned to have a chat with him about Snip's heels....but after hearing the comments on here I'm def worried!
Also, summer 2008 he got over the ulcer problems and behaved perfectly. summer 2009 was a permanent 2 steps forward 1.5 steps back...and now the ulcers are back.
So if this is a real problem, then has it gradually been developing all summer, meaning we;ve not been able to really move on, and his paces have def not been the same all summer.
I dunno, this is all a bit mind blowing.
Going to get a professional in and see what they say. Something is causing these ulcers, it's no longer his environment, it's not his feed....so what is it?
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Post by jill on Jan 1, 2010 18:30:50 GMT 1
What is different about the periods when the ulcers have apparently healed and he is happy? Seems like the ulcers are healing at the end of winter? Spring grass? Any annual change in management which coincides with spring? Worming routine (Pramox is what we give in January)? Just thinking out loud here, it definitely sounds as though it is seasonal. May or may not be connected but Sophie (Holsteiner mare here) has had the runs every time the grass os frosted. You wouldn't think they would be finding enough to graze, but it has happened twice since this icy weather - might not be the frost on the grass but her body coping with the cold, or cold water to drink, or stress from moving on frozen mud............................trains of thought really. Basic detective work.
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Trouble
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Post by Trouble on Jan 1, 2010 18:40:10 GMT 1
They're all other things I've been going over.
Thought it was the stabling, but he refused to do 24/7 outdoor living once the temp dropped!
I have thought maybe it's the frosty grass? Higher sugars? Cold on his belly?
Not one of these things *should* be causing such a violent reaction....but something is! At the moment I am beginning a programme of eliminating things from the enquiry!!
After speaking to my vet, we have made a mutual decision not to treat with Gastrogard. This is not just because of it's cost - if he needs it, I'll find a way to afford it....but in the meantime there are more affordable possibilities that we need to investigate, and if we hit it with Gastrogard - a known and proven cure, then how can we judge the benefits and effectiveness of other things we try, the more affordable and long term solutions?
Part of me is everso slightly uneasy with the decision - I want him cured and comfortable, but knowing that the worst he's been was last year, and the ulcers were only grade 2's...and this year he appears to not be so bad....I am pretty sure we're looking at grade 1 ulcers at worst. Shouldn't even be enough to affect him in any real way, but they do.
The other part of me doesn't want to spend £900 when I know that within 3 weeks he'll need it again, and we've not been able to experiment with other methods.
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Post by taklishim on Jan 1, 2010 19:51:32 GMT 1
ast week I was talking to the friend who introduced me to her farrier and she said that she had changed because farrier had allowed her horses heels to collapse and he's been lame for 6 months now. It did concern me when she told me and I'd planned to have a chat with him about Snip's heels....but after hearing the comments on here I'm def worried!
sorry but I am getting a bit lost at the "panic" mode over your feet. What is so wrong with them?? OK improvements could be made but that is always possible. I really don't however think they are the cause of your problems. I don't think it is always helpful for people just to list the faults in feet. You could put up pictures of totally sound feet that have done many barefoot miles and and no doubt, after reading a book, people would produce a list of faults. This is fine but it is a case of looking at the feet as a whole and being able to determine if they can do what is being asked of them. What matters is if your horse is sound over all surfaces. That is the acid test of a barefoot horse not how many faults you can list. ;D
I cannot see any comments about this. He didn't look too unhappy, footwise, trotting out on the concrete. Is he footy? What sort of work can his feet do when taken in conjunction with the conditioning riding that he has had? ie if he has not been ridden much due to illness he may not be so good on harsher surfaces.
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Trouble
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Post by Trouble on Jan 1, 2010 20:01:49 GMT 1
I don't thinik there is any panic mode at all.
He appears sound over all ground conditions, but something somewhere is wrong...and so far this is the next best lead I have.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2010 20:11:09 GMT 1
This is fine but it is a case of looking at the feet as a whole and being able to determine if they can do what is being asked of them. What matters is if your horse is sound over all surfaces. That is the acid test of a barefoot horse not how many faults you can list. I'm sorry, but I disagree with this. You can have a whole host of things going wrong with a horse's feet before it gets to the point that he says ouch. I could give you many, many examples of horses I've worked with but the best is probably my own horse whose joints were ruined through bad farriery. She was never lame or unsound until it was too late. If I'd known how to read a foot before, I might have been able to do something before that too late moment came. The more horses I meet, the more I am convinced of the absolute necessity of looking after our horses feet to the best of our ability and not following the route of "it's working ok so that'll do". Because half the time it's not working, it's just that the horse hasn't got any way of telling us.
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pd
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Post by pd on Jan 1, 2010 20:29:26 GMT 1
The more horses I meet, the more I am convinced of the absolute necessity of looking after our horses feet to the best of our ability and not following the route of "it's working ok so that'll do". Because half the time it's not working, it's just that the horse hasn't got any way of telling us. I agree with this, however as a DAEP I don't see anything alarming about these particular feet.
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Post by mandal on Jan 1, 2010 20:30:56 GMT 1
I'm sort of in the middle on this! This has carried over from another thread where the discussion turned to Snip's feet. I agree with LizP that feet are often ignored till things are dire and often the real problem isn't addressed it's just 'managed'. I too am convinced people need to learn about feet as part of leaning about horses holistically. Imo they're also an indicator of a horses general health in many cases. Footyness is ime a huge indicator though and even if all four feet are tender a horse does tend to be 'careful' on rough surfaces. So the fact that Snip is fully sound on all surfaces is a very good sign. Mta... here's a link to the other thread for the experienced Trimmers. ihdg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ght09&action=display&thread=102021&page=3
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Trouble
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Post by Trouble on Jan 1, 2010 20:33:46 GMT 1
But also, remember, his paces have been not as good as I know they can be for the whole year so far...and in that time he's had more than 1 clear scope.
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Post by june on Jan 1, 2010 21:01:08 GMT 1
But somehow it seems unlikely that the feet are causing the ulcers. The hoof wall is good quality. Yes, the heels are a bit high and a little contracted but they certainly aren't dreadful. Could it be that he's just very sensitive to the environment and you have to keep him on a maintenance dose of something like Gastrisoothe once he's had a clear scope?
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Trouble
Grand Prix Poster
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Post by Trouble on Jan 1, 2010 21:17:58 GMT 1
But that's what I have been doing, and they've still come back again.
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Post by jill on Jan 1, 2010 21:29:29 GMT 1
But also, remember, his paces have been not as good as I know they can be for the whole year so far...and in that time he's had more than 1 clear scope. The thing with pain is that it takes a while for the memory of it to be overlaid with comprehension that it no longer hurts, and that could account for the poor paces straight after you know he is clear of ulcers. Or he has been tense through his muscles because of the pain and that tension takes a while to go, especially if it isn't helped with body work. As regards feet, they may not be perfect (which horses feet are) but I would expect much more obvious problems to account in any way for the extreme behaviour you have experienced.
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Post by taklishim on Jan 1, 2010 22:03:19 GMT 1
The more horses I meet, the more I am convinced of the absolute necessity of looking after our horses feet to the best of our ability and not following the route of "it's working ok so that'll do".
I'm not for one minute advocating not looking after them just expressing an opinion that in this case I felt, contrary to some of the earlier opinions, that the feet were not the problem especially now as trouble says he appears sound over all ground conditions.
You can have a whole host of things going wrong with a horse's feet before it gets to the point that he says ouch.
talking only about barefoot horses (shoes can hide too much) I have personally found that you can get away with very little with ridden unshod horses. If you trot and canter over stones, rough surfaces etc on a regular basis then problems (be they foot structure, diet or thrush) show up very quickly.
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Trouble
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Post by Trouble on Jan 2, 2010 1:28:39 GMT 1
Can I ask a dunce question?
I've been looking at the barefoot pics on these sites, and the only really obvious (I can see other differences but I'm talking 'jump out and bite me' obvious) is that Snip's hooves sort of continue round to form a more complete circle, at the heels, whereas the 'good' barefoot pics are more open at the back. Meaning that Snips hoof sort of digs into the soft heel/bulbs right?
Would this be kind of similar to an ingrown toenail in humans? I make this comparison because i was born with quite severe ingrowing toenails on both my big toes, and have to get them seen to regularly, meaning that I get a sliver of nail sliced from down the side of the big toenail, otherwise it digs in (sorry, gross i know!)
I'm just trying to put it inot lamens terms for my poor tired brain!
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