Help me unfreeze Flynn....

[wabuska]

My wonderful horse Flynn is STILL occasionally freezing up on rides, and just zoning me out when he's worried about a bush/rustle/crisp bag/cat.... whatever. This is so deeply frustrating and piling on the pressure with a lot of leg, whip-whop etc., doesn't work. He goes dead to everything and just stares in immobility, his neck set, his head in the air and he's happy (or unhappy) to stay there all day if needs be. Backing up and going shoulder in SOMETIMES works, but not always.

Right now, I've been trying with dismounting and circling, but frankly even this has to be enforced. Today I took off a half chap and waved it at his quarters to get him moving around me, backing up etc., as he's just not listening at all. I really had to force him on, and that and a lot of leg (which to me reads as boots in the ribs ), leaves me really down after such a ride.

Yes, I know, he has to move off the leg.... basic schooling and he's a feather light horse otherwise and well schooled to the aids. However, as many of you know, genuinely scared horses do not move off the leg. We do a lot of groundwork and have a good relationship overall, but once he gets in the zone, I'm invisible no matter how loud I get.

It tends to be 'in the bushes' things. JCBs, tractors, herds of deer, other horses- no problem at all. He's better at canter and gallop, but by God you need a deep seat to survive sometimes. We met four white sporty quad bikes in the woods and I got down and led him through. I don't expect miracles and try to be fair.

This is not all the time, but today I got down SIX times over two hours. It took two hours because I did groundwork and some de-spooking with a small plastic bag he napped at on the way home. Approached and retreated for 45 minutes to pass one well known spot. One other section of road took an hour to complete in a positive fashion. I have a damaged knee and hip, so this is not good news for my pain levels either.

Help. I don't believe for an instant it's back or tack. This horse is afraid. Could he be protecting me? I am laid back riding and don't need ruddy protecting!!

Feed..... hay and about a bucket of Alfafa light with oil and sprinkle of high fibre nuts. The alfafa is not great for him. Could it be an energy issue? He's out 24/7 except when in before riding.

[potto]

Hi Kanga.... I don't know huge amounts about your situation.. age of horse, feed breed, level of training etc... but what i would say is that what helped me and my boy over a certain point where we got stuck with this sort of thing in riding out and trust was 'blinkers'. I tried getting off and leading past scary things.. longlining, spookbusting... schooling everything and was pretty consistant.. i sought advice etc and again he was pretty responsive and i called him a go and slow.. he would go pretty much suddenly when he fancied it or was scared or if he was 'listening' and was slow or 'switched off' when scared ... however force was not an answer as he would loose trust and go backwards plus behaviour esculate into cycle... and... also anything else led me round in circles....

I found the blinkers (I used racing blinkers halfcup) calmed him and got him going forward nicely as i had his 'attention' back... it made it so much easier not to compete with the whole world all the time... it was like going out with a husband with roving eyes......god forbid... Anyway... you do have to watch out if your horse is prone to shooting off that they don't whiz forward too much in surprise at things they can't see coming behind them... and if you are standing still for periods i would take them off... but give them ago it may just help with the 'calming effect'... it might be worth asking 'bridget' on here she just did a project on here and will have some results to see what happened... she will have some more info... for you....

I am now riding without mostly.... and generally his confidence and learning and trust has come on so much that he is pretty able to cope without loosing the plot....so that he can listen... good luck. I would look at the other things too... I do believe horses protect you.. and themselves for safety, i would make sure his back and tack are or have been checked... just to rule stuff out ( I tend to do it as a routine like immunisations now) i mean they are all a bit nuts at this time of year when the they get hungry and cold etc...xxxx

[wabuska]

I would never have thought of blinkers Potto. Thanks for that and delighted that lateral approach worked for you. I would imagine it's one of those things that could either help or worsen the problem. I can't get between his ears where the problem is right now, and I don't know if physically limiting his vision is the right way forward. I'll look into it... pardon the pun. Lol.

[june]

One thing I found very useful when my young horse used to plant was to bend her head round on one rein and then gently lift that rein. Its what the stunt riders use to get their horses to "fall over", so you do have to use the lift carefully but it forces the horse to shift its hind quarters so it doesn't fall over. Once you've got movement you then have some chance of directing it.

Once the horse worked out I could move her feet she stopped planting as I guess it was no longer useful to her!

[chloe]

Dolly went through a stage of doing this a few years back although she wasn't scared. In her case it was a serious case of the naps and I only got her out of it by riding VERY positively...I'd gotten into the habit of slouching and relaxing out hacking instead of directing her so she'd decided that standing and looking at stuff was much easier than walking or trotting without direction.

Shortening the reins, sitting up properly, and focussing for the whole hack stopped the napping. If I felt her slowing or starting to focus on something other than me, I'd tip her head to one side, disengage the hind end, then send her straight forwards into a fast walk or forward going working trot.

Worked brilliantly and she's great fun to hack now

[rifruffian]

referring to original post......my opinion......'is my horse protecting me ?'........answer, certainly not. In these moments the horse does not even acknowledge you are there, you have entirely lost his attention, and thats the trouble.

The idea that a ridden problem can be solved by dismounting, is wrong. You can get some sort of solution to your travel problem via this intervention but it does not go any way to tackle the ridden problem. You already know that, so why continue to dismount ?

If it is agreed that it is important to retain the attention, that is to say the connection, between the horse and rider then in a situation such as this rider anticipation must be one of the keys. That is to say, in anticipating this problem, retain attention of the horse by giving him something else to do, every few seconds; yes, even on a long hack. Also important to give the horse your own full time attention, 'read the horse'.

Calm is very important. You write about your frustration at these times; that will transmit as tension to the horse so maybe scope for change there.

So these few points from the original post may merit some thought.

[wabuska]

Thanks all. Yes Riff, I will conceded that frustration does come in after a time. I do concentrate when riding as there's no other way to ride Flynn, but it's anticipating in the split second before he freezes up that can be the issue. I don't like getting down, but after all else has failed and time passed it's hard to resist leading through it or doing some groundwork. Appreciate the feedback.

[Emily+Meg]

When he freezes is he literally unmovable? If you say open your left rein right out, and apply firm left leg, does he just refuse to circle?

This is an interesting problem, Ive had a few horses tricky to hack alone but not had one that totally freezes and wont listen to anything.

I know the circling works for Mums pony when she tried to reverse if she didnt want to keep going out hacking - harder workt to do tiny circles than continue on - but this is tricky if Flynn wont move his feet at all!

[mandal]

Does he freeze looking into the distance? ie. with head up and tense?
No personal experience to draw on but I did recently hear a Trainer say that this sort of reaction could be an indication of general fear and ulcers could be another reason. Might sound bizarre but this Trainer said her horse stopped doing this when ulcers were treated.

Keeping a diary of days of hacks and particularly the precise events leading up to 'freezes' could identify something...

Mta... Am I totally loosing the plot now???

[rj]

Hi Kanga,
Do you ride with purpose all of the time you are out on a hack, or do you allow Flynn to carry himself how he likes, and generally be invisible? Not a criticism; with the sort of horse that is careful & confident you can just look around and generally not interfere.
However, if you are not already doing so, I would suggest that you are positively & strongly 'there' with him the WHOLE time, not wait til there's a problem.
You can be too 'laid back' y'know!!
Then you will be more in tune, and ready to see/feel the first sign that he's becoming anxious and worried, before he can't cope anymore. You can then easier distract him by asking for a circle, flex, back-up or whatever is needed BEFORE he has lost the plot.
Also, you must must must stay calm & consistent. By getting emotional - be it frustration, anger, worry etc - you are affecting his emotions too. Work on yourself, get yourself mentally 'fit' to help Flynn, and be his trusted leader.
For what its worth, getting off isn't failure, if it achieves the desired result, but if getting off doesn't work, you have caused another problem to resolve!!!
I think you really have to get someone (an RA or similar) who works holistically, to see you together, assess you as well as Flynn, give you the tools to work with.
Good luck!

[marianne]

Dec 20, 2009 18:13:29 GMT 1 @wabuska said:

today I got down SIX times over two hours.

... He's out 24/7 except when in before riding.

Oh Kanga, I can but sympathise I thought my 4 x dismount on a ride was a record ....... but so much of what you write rings a chord!

My mare is equally out 24/7/365, only fed vits/mins/hay - but spooks at SO MANY THINGS !!!

I've found that adding calmer to her diet has made a huge difference though, and a lot more pleasurable ride. I'm all out at the moment however and not expecting my next delivery for a fortnight, so guess what, we'll be doing a LOAD of groundwork in the meantime!

[emi]

I ditto a calmer or something, a magnesium supplement would be worth a try unless you've analysed all his forage and concluded it's not necessary. It doesn't work for all horses and obviously won't help any underlying fear issues but it may help settle his mind and just help him think a bit more rationally about things. Calmers aren't just for 'crazy' or forward going horses - I had my 1000% laid back connie on NAF Magic magnesium one spring because he started to get really uncharacteristically spooky. It worked a treat and he didn't need it after a while, I think we must have had a batch of hay that was different plus he was in too.

I'd also look in to putting him on a vit/min supplement - either a low calorie balancer or just a powdered supplement such as Benevit Advance. It very well may help - speak to some feed company nutritionists if you're unsure what to go for, they're always very helpful and many have worked for more than one of the major companies so know more products than just the ones their advising for!!!


Also, what happens if you don't get off when he freezes? Does he go quite crazy or will he literally just not move? Have you ever just sat there and waited, if so what does he do? Just curious and trying to get a picture of what might be triggering it really!

[mandal]

Sourcing stuff over here in Ireland isn't always easy. Straight magnesium oxide seems to be a no go unless you have it sent from UK.
I've managed to find Top spec comprehensive balacer off the net. Mag calmers are easy to find it seems. Feed stores round me are not very keen to order stuff in for you. Hopefully it's better where you are Kanga if you decide to alter his feed.

[jol]

I can fully sympathise with you Kanga...Poser is a full on freezer...one of the reasons why he didn't make a good race horse. He is almost totally unspookable out hacking...any traffic even on narrow lanes, pigs, plastic bags, pheasants, etc but he used to freeze very occasionally, and I mean fully freeze, no forward, no back, no sideways. I've even had someone come up behind and whack him with a stick (not my choice I hasten to add) and he didn't budge an inch. What he used to freeze at...sometimes new things...crossing river for first time, sometimes a combination of things..lot's of traffic, people walking and cows running around a field (example!) sometimes nothing I could see. To start with he would freeze up leaving home, but then of course he wouldn't have been hacked out alone before I had him so understandable. Anyway, I'm not being very helpful to you really, because he doesn't do this anymore! And I'm not entirely sure why either. when he frooze up I had no choice but to get off to simply get his attention, and to be honest with a young inexperienced horse of his nature I have no problem with occasionally getting off if there is something genuinely scary and helping them past it, it certainly worked for him because when I approached the river the second time he walked through no problem without me dismounting. I think he now trusts me enough for me to not need to get off and hold his hand, plus of course he is better schooled no so listens to me and I know him better to judge his reactions. Anyway I'm giong to stop going on, because my situation isn't really relevant to yours, but just maybe there is something that might help

[wabuska]

Just working through the replies...

I can circle him Emily, but coming out of the circle he focuses right back on the 'issue' and we're still stuck. Head up, staring. He will generally lead, but yesterday to make him move even around me took a soft whap on the bum with a half chap... not a hit I promise lads. We have one car wide roads, so it's hard to give whatever the 'thing in the bushes' is room.

Cats are a complete down tools event. We have cats at home, so I can't understand that. Sheer terror on the road or tracks.

RJ.. yes, I am with him all the time, holding his hand, and he can be absoloutely fantastic in a crisis. Pigs... no problem. Other strange horses doing the fandango... no problem. Deer leaping into our path.... handles it. If a Jumbo jet landed in a field beside us, he's the horse I would want to be on. He's a stand and think lad, and largely very safe. We had dealt with the four quads and I had a decision between a long road and a short one home, frankly given things were starting to unravel, I should have gone on home. The last freeze/nap we worked through from the saddle by..... ask forward, nothing, dead to leg, turn, trot up to woods, turn around letting everything relax, back to small plastic bag on ground, stopped, turn around trot back to woods.... after six goes of this he inched around the bag, at which point I got down loosened his girth and introduced him to Mr. Bag. Exhausting but a touch of success.

Calmers? He was on one, and was going well.... I'll try again. I think I assumed he was going well regardless of the calmer, but I'll get Relax Me again or try one of the others with the herbs included... there is one good tack shop here in county Cork Mandal, but yes, considering there's a horse every ten yards here, we are not well supplied!

Jol... that gives me heart. I don't mind giving him a lead from time to time, but I don't want him to rely on that and only that, as we had a dancing in the road moment on our only busy road and I don't like being on a scared horse dead to the leg.

I'm going to do some plastic bag work and de-spooking stuff as he freaked at the tiny hand sized plastic bag yesterday, even rumpled in my hand. Dropping the Alfafa too.

The frustration comes from wondering why I can't give him the comfort of leadership I really want to. I'm mad about him but he's remained nervous for the year and half I've owned him.

The Irish answer to this (and I speak as an Irish woman) is to beat the living daylights out of him to get compliance. I'm not going there.