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Post by Zuzan on Dec 10, 2009 14:58:30 GMT 1
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Post by treacletart on Dec 10, 2009 21:01:17 GMT 1
This is great news, thank you for posting. And I feel sure its the same with animals too.  |
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Post by SarahW on Dec 11, 2009 10:26:07 GMT 1
I am sure that this is also true with horses and it would be great if there was a proper scientific experiment to test it - however, would it be ethical to subject a horse to things that you know will make it afraid?
If a horse is not physically injured following an incident or an emergency then I would always advocate taking the time and effort going back to the scene if it was safe to do so to do some incremental desensitisation work and to help the horse to overcome his fear. Look at how many showjumpers routinely pop over another, usually smaller, fence if there horse has had a disaster in the ring. You can always try to leave a situation when the horse's adrenalin is down so that the horse is desensitised (ending on a good note) rather than while his adrenalin is up and he could be sensitised by the experience.
I'm not sure how much bad memory can be replaced by good memory especially after time has elapsed. I think of the horse's memory as a photograph album where, incidentally, his store of pictures are actually little movies with smell and sound too. Our job is to add as many good pictures in as we can so that, for example, when he throws open the chapter on "People Approaching Me in the Field", he is likely to fall on a good picture rather than a bad one.
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Post by Zuzan on Dec 11, 2009 10:52:05 GMT 1
I am sure that this is also true with horses and it would be great if there was a proper scientific experiment to test it - however, would it be ethical to subject a horse to things that you know will make it afraid?......... That was what I was thinking.. I think of the horse's memory as a photograph album where, incidentally, his store of pictures are actually little movies with smell and sound too. Our job is to add as many good pictures in as we can so that, for example, when he throws open the chapter on "People Approaching Me in the Field", he is likely to fall on a good picture rather than a bad one. That's really helpful way of looking at memory.. I like that a lot. |
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Post by jamesb on Dec 11, 2009 14:01:49 GMT 1
There is some research (don't ask me where!) to indicate that a memory with a strong emotional attachment is retained more vividly and in much more detail, at least in humans. This is one of the reasons that a simple sound, or smell, can bring something to the forefront of one's mind years after the event. I believe it's heavily implicated in PTSD treatment. BTW Sarah's theory of horses' memories being like little movies is exactly how mine works! Hmmmm.... |
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Post by arabmania on Dec 11, 2009 20:27:49 GMT 1
which brings to mind the good old 'when you fall off get straight back on' theory. Hence the longer you leave it the worse it will become to do just that.
Others may say give your self time before getting back on board to work through it and get your confidence back.
To play devils advocate...... i was locked in a removal van as a youngster and if anyone would of made me go back into any lorry within a 6 hour period i would no doubt freaked out, and i beleive, would have not benefited from that experience! I am from there on and 37 years later very claustophobic and hate being closed in anywhere.
i have not read the article but will do. as always there are many influences to these studies that may or may not make a difference. For me possibly leaving the door and windows open within 6 hour period may have made a difference to me but certainly not the identical experience.
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Dec 11, 2009 23:17:00 GMT 1
A friend of mine is a trauma specialist. He runs a trauma centre, works with both civilians and returning military personnel and has just come back from lecturing on trauma at a University in the US.
I have been talking to him for some time about using his PTSD techniques to try and help one of my horses, Zee. I think it's definitely worth exploring. I am hoping to get certified in trauma treatment too - mainly to help with bereavement work.
A common techniques is to debrief the subject - i.e. listen while they tell you about what happened to them. I guess that has the effect of reliving the event to some extent and would perhaps open up that 6 hour window the research referred to.
Of course, some traumas are unlikely, freak events (like getting shut in a lorry perhaps?) and others are to be partly expected (e.g. battle horrors). If a freak event has given rise to a phobia, desensitisation, with a lot of calm reassurance and trust, can help.
I haven't yet learned how to treat victims of predictable horrors where there is no phobia.
I used to think PTSD was something very complicated and must have very complex treatment methods. I am sure there is a wide spectrum of methods, but my friend's method seems refreshingly common sense. I'm sure every Mum knows that if her kid has been scared by something, she needs to ask them what happened, put things in perspective for the kid and hold their hand whilst they try and take on whatever it was that went wrong for them last time.
I think we can take a lot of that "common sense" approach into horsemanship. We have to be a bit more intuitive or sensitive about the debrief process though. But perspective, desensitisation and hand-holding are all things we use routinely and probably don't even think to value too much as methods.
I love Sarah's theory of a photo album of memories - it's a theory that has given me great comfort and encouragement in my journey with my Zee. It encouraged me to think that one day we will have filled his photo album with so much stuff that the bad memory will have faded away and he will become a relaxed happy horse. I am delighted to report that he has significantly improved in the last month or so - not just with me. I keep hearing stories of what he has been getting up to with other people when I'm not there - following my sharer around when he poo-picks and asking for pony nuts, sticking his head through the big caravan window of one of the travellers and joining in with their family time. And the cuddles he has been having with me - it's wonderful! It's as if the super-sensitive force field around his body has dropped to almost zero and suddenly he doesn't mind being touched, stroked, cuddled, played with and talked to.
I increasingly feel that time, love and consistent, gentle handling - these things heal trauma in a horse. Maybe there are shortcuts. I didn't find any, despite all my efforts. The journey itself has been wonderful in it's own way though. If I could have "fixed" Zee in a matter of minutes, hours, days, weeks or months - then I would not feel such joy and relief now. The fact it has taken 6 years, so much trying, so much stress and worry on my part, so many things I have had to try and learn....all these things make the result so much more precious now. And when the next traumatised horse comes into my life, I will know a lot more about how to help him/her.
It isn't news to us of course, but I wish the wider horse world would understand that they can do damage in a matter of minutes that takes years to fix. It should be obvious really - humans are just as vulnerable. I guess some people don't care what harm they do and others don't have the sense or experience to expect things to go wrong.
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Post by portiabuzz on Dec 12, 2009 12:49:37 GMT 1
isn't news to us of course, but I wish the wider horse world would understand that they can do damage in a matter of minutes that takes years to fix. It should be obvious really - humans are just as vulnerable. I guess some people don't care what harm they do and others don't have the sense or experience to expect things to go wrong.
sadly very true Caroline x
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Post by SarahW on Dec 12, 2009 17:50:53 GMT 1
Portiabuzz,
I couldn't agree more. I have learned that if you think something might happen then it probably will so best to guard against it or minimise the risk in the first place. This doesn't mean avoiding a situation altogether but just to do a sort of dynamic risk assessment.
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Post by portiabuzz on Dec 12, 2009 18:21:57 GMT 1
you cant do anymore then that Sarah! x
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Post by Kelly Marks on Dec 20, 2009 19:28:03 GMT 1
Excuse me stickying this just because I found it so interesting and didn't want to loose it! I'll copy it and put it somewhere safe now!
"If I could have "fixed" Zee in a matter of minutes, hours, days, weeks or months - then I would not feel such joy and relief now. "
Caroline - I know you're on the side of the horse so hope won't be offended if I ask "but which would Zee have preferred?" One of the interesting things with the heart rate studies is confirming what a lot of us have always suspected - that the anticipation of a human/whatever touching is the most stessful thing to a nervous horse - they can finally relax when it happens and they realise it's not going to hurt them.
Of course, stages have got to be incremental but there was a stage in my fear (driving the big horsebox - refer to the book 'Perfect Confidence' !) when I was driving the little lorry and it was great but if someone had done a lot of talking about why I should drive the big horsebox and trying to persuade me I would be OK etc etc I don't think I'd ever have done it. Now I'm driving it, the whole thing seems completely ridiculous - why ever did I faff about over it all that time?!
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Dec 21, 2009 0:02:40 GMT 1
I am sure both Zee and I would have preferred to have got things sorted faster and sooner, but it wasn't possible - so I find the good in what has happened, even if we both would have preferred something else.
I agree that fearful anticipation is worse than the event that is feared.
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Post by SarahW on Dec 21, 2009 9:16:36 GMT 1
I imagine that prey animals including horses (and ourselves to some extent) live with a certain level of fear/ anticipation anyway - they have to be vigilant if they are to survive. What's great about domesticated horses is that we can take that level of fear and reduce it to the extent that they no longer feel the need to leave when things go wrong and can turn to us for leadership. Last week I worked with my farrier's horse, Spider, who is terrified of whips - I wonder why??!! Anyway, with the simple touch and move away technique I desensitised him to a feather duster on a long arm, followed by a carrier bag and then a whip. His owner never uses even carries a whip so I felt that this was ethical - I have great reservations about desensitising a horse to something it also needs to be sensitive too - for example a carrot stick or a rope. My point is, that in just 15 to 20 minutes this little horse (17.2hh) was able to give up his fear of stick like objects coming towards him and he certainly looked relieved. Time will tell whether it will help him in the long run - some repetition required I should think - but I would very much hope that it would. Repetition is so important.  |
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