sundance
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PSSM
Mar 28, 2009 14:28:17 GMT 1
Post by sundance on Mar 28, 2009 14:28:17 GMT 1
I am about to take on a beautiful Palomino Quarter horse from a sanctuary. They say he has had lots of muscle problems and are a bit vague about it but say they have found that Quarter horses have to be fed a diet low in starch and protein. This rings bells for me as we used to have a mare that had metabolic issues and we experimented with a diet designed for horses with PSSM and found that this was common in a certain strain of Quarter horse. Incidentally my other horse did not have this, it came down to azoturia brought on whenever she was stressed, but that's another story. I have found the diet we tried, which involves very large amounts of vegetable oil, fibre, no starch and good vitamin and mineral supplements, especially Selenium and vitamin E. I currently feed simple systems feeds. Does anyone have any help they can offer with managing this condition?
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PSSM
Mar 28, 2009 14:57:26 GMT 1
Post by mags on Mar 28, 2009 14:57:26 GMT 1
I have jack on equi- jewel which is made for that sort of thing. The calories are from fat and selenium and vit E are added to it.
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PSSM
Mar 28, 2009 16:18:24 GMT 1
Post by chestersmum on Mar 28, 2009 16:18:24 GMT 1
We've been studying it for college - as part of a nutritional unit. If you can bear with me for a day or two, I'll be able to e-mail the notes I've got on it, if you like?
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dingbat
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PSSM
Mar 28, 2009 16:20:25 GMT 1
Post by dingbat on Mar 28, 2009 16:20:25 GMT 1
Yes - some quarter horses do seem to get this. So it may be that. Sometimes i wish people would admit it though seeing as you are taking the horse on! I know Finn on here was treating JJ (her QH) for it with a high oil diet. But i'd be worried about them mentioning the starch/protein thing as well as that sounds like some kind of IR/metabolic issue. And the 2 combined are tricky!
I dont think you would automatically assume a QH to be potentially laminitic or whatever but i have a paint and i have to watch him closely with the grass and his feet. Hes fed a basic diet, although we dont have to top up the oil. hes ok.
The mendip stud do their own feed geared towards feeding horses naturally (and breed QHs) which is oil based for energy.
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PSSM
Mar 28, 2009 19:24:15 GMT 1
Post by jen1 on Mar 28, 2009 19:24:15 GMT 1
hi, is this differant from epsm? id go in search of finn who used to come on here, and contact jackie taylors metabolic horse on yahoo,
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sundance
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PSSM
Mar 28, 2009 19:30:11 GMT 1
Post by sundance on Mar 28, 2009 19:30:11 GMT 1
Can you give me a contact number for equi-jewel? I will ring and speak to their nurtitionist. The sanctuary is one which has been running for more than 30 years and has an excellent reputation. I just think they haven't come across this condition before and I am maybe one step ahead of them. The horse actually looks quite poor at the moment but this is due to his having wintered out, with a shelter and rugs, as they have found he is better to be kept moving and the grooms being overcautious with his feeding. What they seem to have left out is the oil that he needs.I am making a guess that it is PSSM but it all seems to add up.
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PSSM
Mar 28, 2009 19:36:51 GMT 1
Post by mags on Mar 28, 2009 19:36:51 GMT 1
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Shiney
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PSSM
Mar 30, 2009 18:36:40 GMT 1
Post by Shiney on Mar 30, 2009 18:36:40 GMT 1
Sorry for the numpty question but just wondered what PSSM is?
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PSSM
Mar 30, 2009 20:09:20 GMT 1
Post by chestersmum on Mar 30, 2009 20:09:20 GMT 1
I don't know if this will be any help, but it might help someone - below is just a summary of notes and research I have on PPSM from last week's university lecture.
PSSM stands for Poly Saccharhide Storage Myopathy or it's also referred to as Equine Polysaccharide storage (EPSM) - it is to do with an increased storage of glycogen within skeletal muscles. It is common in QH but has also been seen in WB's, draft horses and Morgan horses.
It's quite closely related to exertional rhabdomolysis - ER is one of the signs that a horse with PSSM can exhibit (although it's possible to suffer ER without PSSM).
The National Research Council the best nutritional management course is feeding a minimum of 1.5% of bodyweight in fibre, removal of concentrates containing mollasses - and supplementing the diet with vegetable oil, rice bran or unmollassed sugar beet if extra energy requirements are needed.
Although there is clinical evidence that suggests oil has signifcantly reduced muscle dysfnction there's some argument as to how much oil is needed to see such clinical improvements - McKenzie (2003) has reccomended 20-25% of the diet whilst Riberiro (2004) and Firschmann (2001) has found improvement with 10-15% dietary oil with controlled exercise.
ETA: All information has bee taken from the NRC, Nutritonal Physiology of the Horse (Hill and Ellis) and journals from my lovely lecturer ... none of it is my own!
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sundance
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Mar 31, 2009 9:26:25 GMT 1
Post by sundance on Mar 31, 2009 9:26:25 GMT 1
The high oil diet which I have found recommends 1 litre of veg. oil to 1,000kg body weight plus added vitamin E and selenium. This will take some time for the horse to accept but should not be too much of a problem. In Quarter horses it all goes back to one stallion, who was used a lot as he was a good show horse. I am looking into his breeding to see if there is a link.
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PSSM
Apr 7, 2009 12:01:54 GMT 1
Post by Amanda (S Yorks) on Apr 7, 2009 12:01:54 GMT 1
My mare is partbred QH and is strongly suspected to have EPSM/PSSM based on how she presents when unmanaged and also her response to the EPSM diet and management methods. I haven't had a biopsy done as couldn't see the point, if I manage her properly she stays sound so that's evidence enough for me.
The key for my mare is to keep her sugar intake low, so that means restricting grazing for most of the year (muzzle). She'll crash and come in really sore in her hindquarters and over her back if she gets too much grass, this happens quite quickly. She will short stride, become footsore (and laminitic if things get bad enough) and get quite grouchy and miserable. She's never officially tied up but when things got bad last year she couldn't pick her hind hooves up high enough for me to pick them up without wobbling and staggering around.
I don't feed the full amount of oil as recommended by Dr Valentine (there are two schools of thought, one that the oil is necessary and another the reducing sugars is enough), but I do feed some. My mare gets about 200ml per day in a mixture of olive and vegetable oil. I also feed alfalfa pellets and, when needed, unmolassed beet. There's a clear difference in how she goes when she doesn't have the oil vs when she has it, but increasing the oil doesn't show any further improvements. It's been a bit of a case of trial and error.
I also feed magnesium, sodium and Vit E (human capsules, 1000iu) but not selenium as she gets enough of that from her hoof supplement (Equimins Hoofmender). She's muzzled as soon as the grass starts to make an appearance to when it drops off significantly, last year that was from April to November, this year she's been wearing her muzzle for about a month now. I feed ad-lib hay and can feed some brands of haylage. She's better when she's in regular work too, and with as much turnout as possible.
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PSSM
Apr 7, 2009 12:55:35 GMT 1
Post by wendyihts on Apr 7, 2009 12:55:35 GMT 1
Sundance, you've pulled me out of months of lurking with that last comment. PSSM isn't down to the Impressive stallion line in QHs. The genetic illness passed down the Impressive line is known as HYPP and you need to ensure this QH is completely negative for HYPP. This is referred to as being 'HYPP n/n'. If he was heterozygous for HYPP, or was fully positive for it, I would advise not touching him with someone else's barge pole unless he's going to be an unridden companion. I was recently offered a lovely QH mare for free but she is heterozygous for HYPP and the risk of her having an attack and collapsing underneath a rider was just too much.
PSSM, or EPSM, may have some kind of hereditary aspect to it but it has not been linked to any particular gene, whereas HYPP is down to a single specific mutated gene.
The horse could have both PSSM and HYPP, but I would advise that the HYPP negative status is resolved 100% before taking him on.
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sundance
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Apr 9, 2009 19:36:52 GMT 1
Post by sundance on Apr 9, 2009 19:36:52 GMT 1
I have ruled out any connection to Impressive, therefore I think it looks more like PSSM. But it could be just muscle problems due to a very bad birth from an older mare with them left out in terrible conditions, this was compounded by his being sold to an idiot who kept him in a back garden and allowed him to become badly injured. The horse hospital feel they overfed him to compensate and he is now improving with a low starch diet and physio. The PSSM is my own assumption so I am going to start off with the high oil diet, I never feed starch or sugars anyway, and, if he improves over time, try to see if there is a difference without the oil. Fortunately our grass is not rich and we can restrict it. His main job is as a companion but I hope to back him and see how far we can go with him, the sanctuary vets feel there won't be a problem so long as he isn't overfed.
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PSSM
Apr 9, 2009 19:55:04 GMT 1
Post by wendyihts on Apr 9, 2009 19:55:04 GMT 1
Sounds great, Sundance! Best of luck with him. Can I also recommend speaking to the guys at Top Spec - it was their advice and products that utterly transformed Lutine. This is her, post skeletal state, but I couldn't get muscle on her at all. and then after a few months on the Top Spec diets: Her blog address is www.lutinedumanaou.blogspot.comRight my 5 mins on the DG is now up! LOL back to lurkdom.
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sundance
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Apr 10, 2009 19:32:48 GMT 1
Post by sundance on Apr 10, 2009 19:32:48 GMT 1
Lutine looks great! I will contact Topspec, my main concern is that there is no starch in their balancer or supplements. I know their advice line is second to none and have every faith in them. Can't wait untill Sunday now!
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