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Post by lisap on Dec 16, 2008 17:14:21 GMT 1
It's not often I feel propelled to have a big rant, but seeing yet another example of an overbent horse today has just made the festive red mist descend..... Overbending, or the horse behind the vertical when ridden is apparently more and more acceptable these days. On another thread here, when an instructor was questioned, (quite rightly), by the owner of the horse why the horse was being ridden behind the vertical, the instructor replied that it “ Was a starting point from which to work”.My question to this instructor would be, why start from a point where the horse’s shoulders are unnaturally weighted by the position of the head and neck, and thus restricted in movement? Why start from a point where the neck is blocked and compressed rather than allowed to stretch and balance the horse? Why start from a point where the neck cannot stretch the back muscles and spine, so that the back can no longer function and the hindquarters trail out behind? What we see in overbent “collected” horses is where the horse has to drop its poll instead of growing upwards from the withers. Instead it comes under in front and therefore impedes the shoulder movement. In addition, instead of stretching the back muscles (the ilio-spinal muscles) the base of the neck is blocked so the back muscles are not stretched at all. The only time back muscles are stretched is when the horse has its neck fully extended. When the horse is overbent the hindquarters cannot engage in any way, shape or form. The horse might appear light to the rider (and to many dressage judges), but it actually no longer has a true contact on the bit. It is neither balanced nor relaxed. It is behind the bit. Whenever I see a horse overbent – even for a few seconds – in a dressage test, I would automatically knock off three marks for that movement as it is so very incorrect. My apologies if this sounds like a gritted teeth lecture, but I am becoming quite depressed at how many well-meaning horse riders think that overbending means ‘round’, and worse, how many instructors teach riders in a way that means that overbending is an inevitable consequence of that teaching. (I think we need a steam coming out of the ears smilie for this one……
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Post by Catrin on Dec 16, 2008 17:52:54 GMT 1
... (I think we need a steam coming out of the ears smilie for this one…… Will this do
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Post by lisap on Dec 16, 2008 17:55:05 GMT 1
Thank you, Catrin!
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Post by rhillahorse on Dec 16, 2008 20:56:39 GMT 1
Buy copies of Tug of War and throw it at em! ;D
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Post by rifruffian on Dec 16, 2008 21:00:08 GMT 1
OP.....agreed!
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Post by sarahbing on Dec 16, 2008 21:12:59 GMT 1
Couldn't agree more! On a positive note, I went to a vet back lecture recently and they explained in detail what happens to your horse when you ride in this position. Don't think anyone there will be doing it again! Education is the answer!
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Post by horsey123 on Dec 16, 2008 21:20:16 GMT 1
i agreee !!!!
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Post by ladynowak on Dec 16, 2008 21:24:13 GMT 1
Bit harsh I would say!
Don't get me wrong I don't like seeing horses going round with their head between their knees, but at the same time I don't like to see a horse going round with its nose in the air and obviously isn't listening to the rider.
It is not always possible for a horse to go from doing giraffe impressions as a baby to having the perfect poll high, soft, advanced outline that you would expect from a higher level horse.
My CBx will go behind the vertical and I ride him through it, he is green when it comes to schooling so it doesn't bother me but I don't let him get into the habit of it. So long as he isn't evading my contact with his head between his knees and is tracking up I don't really care if he is slightly behind the vertical.
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Post by Roz on Dec 16, 2008 21:26:20 GMT 1
As the person who questioned her instructor, I have to agree with you Lisa, having reviewed the photos of the instructor riding my horse (she's a GP dressage rider) and me riding him, I was amazed to see that I preferred my way of riding him (and I am no great rider). I absolutely hate taking a 'strong contact' on my horses, I always feel that the correct outline should be offered up by the horse, once I stop blocking him and I am balanced. As someone said you can see them trotting in an outline in the field perfectly without a rider on their back! Which looks better to you.... This Or this....
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Post by jennyb on Dec 16, 2008 21:44:47 GMT 1
Your riding is better Roz, no question! It makes me cringe to think how much pressure there must be on that mouth for him to tuck his nose so far under. Agree 100% Lisa, I've lost count of the number of times I have had blank looks from new pupils when I tell them to leave their horse's head alone and not worry about the outline. Loads of people seem to have it drilled into them that the horse must be "round" at all times. People find it a bit weird when I say I honestly don't care about it, by the time the horse has been ridden through some suppling and gymnastic work, then the head takes care of itself over time anyway. And I agree that overbending should be heavily penalised in dressage tests, it's down to us as riders to teach the horses that tucking the nose behind the vertical is not ok. We should teach them how to use their bodies correctly and teach them that they can trust the hand to be gentle at all times before we present them in a dressage test. Dressage needs a huge shake up in this country
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lucia
Grand Prix Poster
Grand Prix Poster
Missing you always Sweetheart.x RIP Mai - 1996-2007
Posts: 2,120
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Post by lucia on Dec 16, 2008 22:08:57 GMT 1
Roz yours is definitely better - where's Heather? She, I'm sure will agree your horse is going much better with you riding. Oh and totally agree with the OP!! I also agree that, especially with a green horse or a horse who has been ridden in a false outline previously, that sometimes a horse will go behind the vertical when being schooled; however, I was always taught that even if I have weight in the reins or feel like I have a 'contact' and the horse appears to be tracking up, the horse is STILL evading the contact and isn't in a correct classical outline. My instructor always used to tell me that a nose slightly in front of the vertical is preferable to one slightly behind as when the rest of his body is soft and balanced the head will follow. (I just struggled to get that to happen LOL!) It was only when I felt my old mare, (sadly no longer with me ) after countless schooling sessions and frustration at myself wondering if I would ever get 'it' that one day I finally felt my mare really lift her back and the contact become finger light but with her 'there', did I understand what it was I was trying to achieve! She seemed to float along, it was only a few moments in a session but I finally felt the magic of how a horse could actually go and how I knew she could move from seeing her at liberty! After achieving it once I never wanted to ride any other way! Easier said than done I have to say (at least for me) and I wish I was a much better rider and could ride like that 'naturally' but I have a long way to go and in the meantime I just do my best and make mistakes. So having finally go it with my old girl I now have to start all over again with a youngster one who finds it wasy to tuck her nose in so I have a completely new set of potential training issues to deal with.........onwards and upwards! LOL!!
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yan
Grand Prix Poster
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 1,057
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Post by yan on Dec 16, 2008 22:10:16 GMT 1
100% agree with you Lisap,but thanks to Roz posting her experiences with this trainer,I know not to bother wasting my money with her.
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Post by rhillahorse on Dec 16, 2008 22:10:57 GMT 1
Roz, I thought exactly the same as you but didn't like to say in case it seemed rude! Your horse looks a lot softer and more relaxed with you. I've seen this with people on our yard, when their instructor has ridden their horse. People were oohing and aahing, but to me the horse looked overbent, tense and unhappy and made a lot nicer picture with the owner riding them.
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Post by donnalex on Dec 16, 2008 22:37:41 GMT 1
Lisa the centred riding horse in your avatar looks overbent to me. It is everywhere, that is supposed to be a good picture of whats correct is it? I agree, slightly above the vertical is better than behind, but in showing circles, unless the pony is rounder, they wont win, however nice they are put together.
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Post by june on Dec 16, 2008 23:00:03 GMT 1
I agree, I hate seeing horses overbent and I hate seeing riders pulling horses into supposed "outlines".
Roz, you're horse definitely looks better with you riding. I said that on your original thread, after a bit of hesitation in case you were offended, which thankfully you weren't!
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