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Post by Kelly Marks on Nov 28, 2008 18:13:31 GMT 1
Wendy - that's a good point about lateral work - I feel another scientific study coming on! Of course we (humans) can misuse anything, I think with classical dressage lateral work the horse is staying (sort of) straight though (hmm not sure how to explain the differences where are Heather or Sue Whitmore when you need them?) Just (for clarity) the one rein stop isn't the only emergency stop, if you couldn't use it for some reason (i.e. too narrow path or slippy area) we used a technique in racing (not guaranteed 100% but useful to know about) where with shortened reins we'd push one hand down and have one hand up (in a snaffle of course) funny because I was recently reading a book called 'The Soul of the Horse' Joe Camp and he said about this and in the US it's called 'The Cavalry Stop'.
By the way Wendy if you're wondering why I haven't answered your email put up here starting conversations it's called d-i-s-p-l-a-c-e-m-e-n-t Do you know of a cure? Plus when people have loads of clutter to clear - Where do you start? How do you decide what to throw away or keep? Is there some brilliant method or a Monty Roberts of clutter clearing that I should know about? Kx
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laura
Grand Prix Poster
going for a splash
Posts: 3,867
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Post by laura on Nov 28, 2008 21:12:47 GMT 1
thats a handy one to know as well ...... thanks kelly .... although I obviously hope I never, ever have to use it if I ever ride a horse in a bit... ...with the bb the emergency brakes can be applied by alternating reins firmly (which it is said acts on an acupressure point on the poll) .. not sure that would actulaly work that quickly on a bolting horse but I just know the technique DID work on the one occasion many years ago when Taz did bolt. Stopped in 30 yards still shaking in fear ....... from the ickle dog with the huuuuuuuuuge vet collar on ..... took us 20 minutes to get her past that point even once the dog gone
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Post by wendyihts on Nov 28, 2008 21:56:50 GMT 1
Actually, I'd really love to understand the biomechanical differences between what might be typically happening in a one rein stop and what happens in lateral work. Perhaps it's something about the horse's impulsion and weight - in fact, I might have a go explaining it to the resident engineer and seeing if he can shed light on it. As for a cure for displacement - er - given that I'm on here too and should actually be doing admin work.... LOL
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Post by donnalex on Nov 28, 2008 22:49:04 GMT 1
Surely the one rein stop is a jerky forced manoeuvre whilst lateral work is done with total softness and suppleness and crucially, no resistance? Lateral work is worked up to slowly, building strength and poise as you progress onto more difficult movements. That is why lateral work is good for the horse, rather than detrimental. Plus the fact that all lateral work should be done equally on both reins. All this has the opposite effect on the horse, or done properly, should do. If it causes soreness it is surely not being done correctly.
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Post by wendyihts on Nov 28, 2008 23:00:38 GMT 1
I don't think the one rein stop/disengagement has to be jerky, or even should be though. Perhaps it's also something to do with the progression of training - fairly large disengagements are often done by horses in early stages of training, whereas a lot more physical development occurs before introducing lateral work?
Hey, but I'm guessing! C'mon heather and sue!
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laura
Grand Prix Poster
going for a splash
Posts: 3,867
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Post by laura on Nov 29, 2008 0:54:49 GMT 1
not when its being trained / practiced properly ... the aim is soft disengagement of the quarters ... ...... no harder on the body than a turn on the forehand ? One rein "emergency" type stop that might be "forced" is only when the horse is NOT listening to usual aids .... then I can certainly see the potential for lumbar strain.... .. or if someone regularily does hard one rein stops dont see any need for that though
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Post by heather on Nov 29, 2008 10:41:13 GMT 1
Hi Kelly,
We have Lucy Rees here for a two day workshop atm, so will try to answer this once finished!!
I confess, I dont know much about the 'one rein stop'- so can anyone enlighten me?!
Heather
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Post by heather on Nov 30, 2008 10:38:27 GMT 1
Hi Kelly, I think that the one rein stop, if practised as the norm, rather than an emergency stop, would indeed cause injury!! But as for lateral work, correctly applied, it strengthens the back and greatly increases suppleness. For instance, without it, how do you gain control of shoulders and hind end, in order to be able to create a correct bend? If you did nothing other than lateral work, and did it badly, then maybe it would cause a problem, if like anything, it was done to excess. But in the great classical schools of Europe, lateral work was always the greatest way to supple a horse and to gain collection. Collection engages the abdominal muscles, which in turn creates a strong back. It is when the horse is ridden like a hammock, with head up and back hollow, that creates a lot of back problems, as does the rollkur position which is the opposite extreme! The giravolta work done in Portugal- in hand work on a very small circle, disengages the hindquarters, but creates suppleness behind the saddle. Sometimes you will see a trainer doing this work for half an hour at a time, but it is rare to see a Lusitano not performing into his late twenties or early thirties, so I dont reckon that this work causes injury or it wouldnt be the case. So no, I think that if someone is pulling a horses head round sharply to stop from speed, then it is a sudden movement and would have potential to cause injury. If you have a piece of cotton and you pull it sharply, it is likely to break, but exert a steady pull on it, and it wont break anywhere near as easily- a bit like muscles I guess!! Heather
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Post by marianne on Nov 30, 2008 10:59:44 GMT 1
ok I'm sticking my neck out here, because I'm neither a horse professional nor even a good rider - but having watched some of my horses recently prancing round the field demonstrating LOADS of sideways movement and plenty of disengaging - I DON'T think by themselves they are causing injury ... and if injury is occurring it is probably down to the rider?
[the osteopath isn't due out till next month so I may have to eat my words ;D ]
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Post by donnalex on Dec 1, 2008 0:37:06 GMT 1
As my horsey osteopath says - horses dont really get problems until they start being ridden. And we have to admit to ourselves, they werent really designed to be ridden.
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Post by heather on Dec 1, 2008 14:26:26 GMT 1
Well I dont reckon your lovely Highland has any back problems by the look of that pic of him jumping out of the water, donnalex!! That is such a stunning shot- my homebred Highland, who is the same colour as Alexander, also used to jump like a stag, but at 28, is now just a happy hacker, and still enjoying life greatly!
Heather
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Post by Sue Palmer on Dec 1, 2008 16:09:07 GMT 1
Going off track a bit from the discussion about one rein stop, here are a few thoughts.
Most of the ridden horses that I see as a physio have lumbar pain to some degree (sadly) - but having assessed plenty of horses, very few pure 'starters' have any physical tenderness / tension at all (pretty much all remedial starters do even though they haven't been ridden much - but not necessarily lumbar pain). I don't know the reason for this (would love to!), but when I went on Mary Wanless 'horse' that measures where you are in relation to the horse's centre of gravity, every single rider's weight was too far back - could this cause lumbar pain? Heather - have you found any trends on your equine simulator course?). Another student project Kelly?!
Anything done to excess will cause pain / tension / tenderness - just think of tennis elbow for example (I know there can be other causes of tennis elbow - but why do you think it was named tennis elbow in the first place). This is why we try not to overjump our horses, or ride all on one rein, why we change diagonal regularly, etc.
When riding or turning at speed, the rider is much less likely to stay still in the saddle or remain over the horse's centre of gravity. This is guaranteed to put more strain through your horse's back (and your own).
Tissue responds to stresses by strengthening. I watched the cartoon film 'Wall-E' the other night, and there were people who didn't walk any more and never had - they just lay in floating chairs. There was a cartoon of their skeleton, showing much less bone than their predecessors who had been active. This may seem amusing, but it's true - if we don't use something, it weakens. Which is why we train gradually towards any new activity. So if an activity is causing pain, it may be that the activity is detrimental, or it may be that the activity has been introduced too suddenly.
The horse uses his head and neck for balance, and in lateral work he is able to do that, and therefore can use his body in a highly efficient way. Disengaging the hindquarters, taken literally, means to 'switch off the hindquarters', very different to lateral work which is used to engage the hindquarters and encourage use of the abdominals. If the hindquarter muscles are 'switched off' (I know this is one use of the disengagement of the hindquarters, deliberately to 'switch them off' to remove the horses ability to control speed and direction), then the rest of the body has to compensate for that in a way in which it is not designed to work, and therefore will be subject to stress and strain. Although we should remember that if we are constantly putting our own bodies to use in a way in which they were not designed to work and therefore causing ourselves stress and strain - just look at the postures of a few people around you, or think about whether your head, neck and spine are in alignment as you read this...
Ok - that's enough thoughts - I'm supposed to be revising!
Sue
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Post by Sue Palmer on Dec 1, 2008 16:12:51 GMT 1
p.s. Kelly - that displacement thing is obviously catching! And as for clearing clutter - try packing to move home! Just when you think you've got everything just about tucked in a cupboard or under the bed, out it all has to come and fit into boxes. And where exactly am I supposed to put that many boxes?!!! Add to that that the kitchen might be needing to be dug up to find a leak underneath it - I can tell you about clutter!
Sue
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Post by wendyihts on Dec 1, 2008 16:47:58 GMT 1
So, if I get this right... disengaging the hindquarters via a one rein stop might cause tenderness because it disrupts the natural, in-balance muscle chains that all support one another whereas lateral work does the opposite and is about enhancing and developing the muscle chains of the whole horse?
BTW, woke up this morning with a stiff neck and very painful shoulder in my right arm. Too much PC-based displacement activity!
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Post by Sue Palmer on Dec 1, 2008 16:54:52 GMT 1
Seems pretty fair! Although of course, a well-ridden, carefully introduced one rein stop would probably cause far less tension than a badly ridden, unbalanced, resistant lateral move! Being able to stay 'at one with the horse' sounds such a simple thing...!
Sue
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