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Post by sarahfox on Dec 26, 2007 19:42:20 GMT 1
Yes,I would hate to think what sort of treatment your two would have in a erm, actually dont know what to call it without causing offense to the BHS! style home!! I never knew that about flutterbies!!
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lovelylace
Grand Prix Poster
Always remember to ride with your soul, not your hands.
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Post by lovelylace on Dec 26, 2007 20:02:33 GMT 1
interesting article and agree on the whole, although he did mention sweden as one of the countries that had been influentlial in the development of dressage and saying that you couldn't find the phrase "on the bit" in any of the original languages, which is wrong in the swedish context, or rather we call it, and have done since the 17th century to be "on the reins" ok so it is not on the "bit"...then again the meaning and the execution of the same is very different and never have I had an instructor in sweden that told me to lower my hands on each side of the withers and move them so that I was sawing so that the horses head would come down.....eeek, didnt stay with him for very long...
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Post by sarahfox on Dec 26, 2007 20:10:37 GMT 1
Can we have some more pics of your horses lovelylace??? please??!!
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laura
Grand Prix Poster
going for a splash
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Post by laura on Dec 26, 2007 20:18:13 GMT 1
welll I bags ten points as well sarah ...... .... good read and does "prove" that some of the "NEW NH" ideals are a) not new b) backed up by (and nearer to) classical dressage ideals It has over the last 7 years been my oft defended principle to attain communication without a bit first ........ THEN i f you want move onto a bit .. I think all riders should prove they have independay balance before geeting a horse with a bit in !!!!!!!!! Please please Finn do keep in touch re driving bitless .... there are not many of us that do it and I could do with some back up Lovely to see thos pics ......... a lovely balanced horse with its head in a far more natural position and with loose reins
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Post by sarahfox on Dec 26, 2007 21:03:17 GMT 1
Did you read the Bettina drummond one too laura? or was that when you were awol?!
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laura
Grand Prix Poster
going for a splash
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Post by laura on Dec 26, 2007 21:14:43 GMT 1
Did you read the Bettina drummond one too laura? or was that when you were awol?! dont think I read it ....... when I was at muy mumsit took sooooo long for a page to load I avoided almost everything I was not intandly grabbed by and anything that might have had pics.
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Post by sarahfox on Dec 26, 2007 21:19:06 GMT 1
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laura
Grand Prix Poster
going for a splash
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Post by laura on Dec 26, 2007 21:41:39 GMT 1
well near the beginning when she was describing the different german . / french connections I went a bit .......but I did find it an interesting read agreed with a lot of the mans principles without knowing a thing about dressage eg about the breed variations and how their structure affects what positions they can actually achieve with grace and without being forced.. or words to that effect ...... and still be "correct" and loads more but the tia maria and tiredness confluggling my brain cells now , they are overloaded.....
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Post by sarahfox on Dec 26, 2007 22:57:08 GMT 1
lol! Yes,I found the bit about different breeds needing different techniques very interesting too.
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Post by fin on Dec 27, 2007 0:37:05 GMT 1
Please please Finn do keep in touch re driving bitless .... there are not many of us that do it and I could do with some back up Actually sonny's idea ATM is to drive H in a saddlechariot in a rope halter with a single line (to prove it can be done). I think it's a bit of a suicide mission actually but I'm game for it, anyway--particularly since it's not going to be me in the saddle chariot. Subscription to Air Ambulance Weekly, anyone? I console myself with the fact that H wouldn't be any safer in a bit--we don't know anything about bits, she doesn't either, and that seems like a fairly good place to start, really
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laura
Grand Prix Poster
going for a splash
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Post by laura on Dec 27, 2007 1:05:43 GMT 1
the great thing about the saddlechariot is its eject button Finn and steve halfpenny assures me that once I "get it together" its possible to drive without anything at all on horses head not sure I would want to do a driving trials obstacle course with nothin on't' hoss head * Laura repeats mantra I do believe what steve says I do believe what steve says I do believe what steve says I do believe what steve says mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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trudi
Advanced Poster
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Post by trudi on Dec 27, 2007 7:26:29 GMT 1
Oh Sarah, interesting link. I’ve read the Bettina stuff before but the reason I’ve not been here much (one of them) is that I’ve been trying to get myself back to first principles and reading again.
As a complete aside, isn’t it funny how Bettina rides so like Nuno? The head bent slightly forward as if in great thought, I guess we all look like our trainers eventually!
Another inconsequential (well not for me) is that I don’t agree with the left hand being lighter! I have had to educate my left hand to be as dextrous and controlled as my right hand and it still falls short of it. Agreed the right can be stronger but it can also be lighter and more accurate. I can feel the moment a horse comes to my right hand and react, with my left it is clumsier and I’ve been practising mounted and dismounted for years. So I think when Sue mentioned the war thing that she was probably right and that may well be the reason that the reins were directed into the left hand, leaving the right hand free to use your sword.
Over the years I have had lots of right handed students with left hand problems, it is usually the hand they ‘drop’ onto the wither without realising and it gets pulled about in shear frustration (you know, that feeling of argghh I can’t do this ). You can test yourself by carrying both reins in one hand and then ‘carrying’ that hand in your other, cradling it and taking quite a bit of the weight. You instantly feel what is happening with the rein hand and it teaches you to ‘carry’ your hands with more sensitivity.
Sorry, I was off on a tangent!
Anyway, having re-read lots of opinions on hands, starting young horses etc in recent weeks, I can honestly say that NOT ONE suggests that you bring the hand to the seat. So why do so many people do that? Is it the total lack of good teaching, trainers who bellow ‘keep him round, get him on the bit’. Or are we so desperate to look good that we pull, push, fiddle until our horses are broken and tired?
Why do our riding schools not start people with a cavesson rein and only allow them to use a bit when their hands are capable of being more still and tactful?
I don’t truly believe anymore (sorry Sarah, I’m back on my path to being truly classical again!!) that I can have a beautifully light, balanced horse, working in self-carriage without the incredibly connection that the bit gives. I have re-habbed Moralejo very successfully using a hackamore and I will never lunge from a bit ring only a cavesson but I will always seek to have that ultimate connection to the mouth, bitless feels clumsy and dull by comparison.
OK last moan!! I think we need not to be frightened of our hands. Often so called NH methods call for long, ‘unconnected’ reins and offer the ideal of riding ‘hands free’. Well for me, I think it would be better to spend the time and learn to have good hands. Even an ‘unconnected’ hand on a long rein can block a horse if it isn’t carried well. This leads to horses curling back behind the bit and giving the feeling of false lightness.
OK, I’ll shut up now. Butterfly you can have ten points if you got this far!!! Sorree for going on!!
Yours Trudi
p.s. arggh they cry. I read but can’t remember where, that the double was introduced for ham-fisted cavalrymen to be able to be rough with the snaffle for steering but have the available resource of the curb to stop. Anyone else know other origins?
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Bay Mare
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Speak to the hoof
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Post by Bay Mare on Dec 27, 2007 9:24:28 GMT 1
Good points Trudi I've just started teaching my niece and either have the reins on the headcollar or make her hold the grab strap for now (as I have Saff in a pelham). She's got a pretty good position already (this was her first lesson): and I'm teaching her to 'steer' and stop without relying on the reins. I thought that the double was for the gentry because they were able to ride with refinement and that the snaffle was introduced for the grooms who were thought to be more ham fisted
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Post by heather on Dec 27, 2007 9:54:24 GMT 1
Hi Sarah,
Yep I have read the article, and actually, know Bettina Drummond. For those who havent heard of her, she was one of Nuno Oliveira's main students, having started riding with him when only 8 years old, and continuing through until his death, when she was in her twenties.
I have watched Bettina's last two clinics here in the UK too, and was surprised to see her having moved quite a bit away from her Portuguese roots in training- not the in hand work, which was pure Portuguese/French school, but the ridden work.
In Portugal, the young horse is usually started off the padded serreta, a cavesson of sorts, with a serrated metal noseband, which is then covered with padded leather, but still creates pressure on the nose. The reins are attached to this, and the horse will have a snaffle bit in, but the reins only on the serreta. Only when the horse is accepting light pressure on the nose and relaxing the poll, will the reins be taken up on the bit.
I say 'usually', because I see, sadly, the young Portuguese moving more and more towards German methods.
Heather
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Post by heather on Dec 27, 2007 9:57:22 GMT 1
AMEN Trudi!!!
Heather
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