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Post by heather on Jun 21, 2007 20:34:56 GMT 1
Hi Derek, Sorry, not quite done yet!!I have ridden a number of horses on the weight of the reins in a snaffle over the years, and fully admit that it is possible to do so, but I cannot understand your preoccupation, as a classical rider, with the snaffle! In former times, it was mostly used by grooms whose hands were not considered to be sufficiently educated to ride in a double. I love the sensitivity of feel permitted by the curb, so yes, it is down to personal preference, but out of interest, to what levels do you train your horses, before using a double bridle? Would you ride your horses at high school level in the snaffle? I do find that some horses will go in self carriage, on the weight of the rein, a lot sooner than others, who require a firmer, but never dead, contact until later in their education as their strength and balance increases. There is a great article by Jean-Claude Racinet in the excellent online Horses For Life magazine this month, in which he states: "Mr von Hopffgarten quotes La Gueriniere as alluding to, and Steinbrecht as describing, the three phases of the hand support, to wit, the “light” hand (“main legere”), the “soft” hand (“main douce”), and the “firm” hand (“main ferme”). These three phases correspond to a progressive state of clenching of the fingers. " Would you agree with this? It is precisely what Desi Lorent taught me. Desi used to say that the fingers 'Have a little conversation with the horse's mouth'. I love Philippe Karl's work, but the Fillis style of holding the reins is fine for a rider of his exalted calibre, but for the lesser mortal, it is a not an easy way of learning to operate the reins. I find that J-C's use is far easier to teach finesse in the use of the hand, even with a 'military rider' such as myself!! ;D Heather
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jun 21, 2007 22:16:29 GMT 1
Oh, all right then, if you must... P'raps I'm just weird! Well, perhaps my hands aren't sufficiently educated yet, then ;D I did hear what I thought was some good advice a while back - learn how to ride without ever needing to resort to a double ... and then it'll be time to learn to use one! Perhaps that answers the previous question - though I may well still be weird lol ;D ;D ;D Yes, I'd agree that is what is in the literature (though I believe the preferred translation of Gueriniere is "closing the fingers", the "clenching" idea is, I fear, potentially rather misleading. One could be pulling with the fingers without necessarily moving the hand or arm... ) Did he also mention the four phases of non-touch, particularly the first phase which is invisible to the observer? To achieve it, one needs to have the horse's mental consent. Hence I might puzzle over a preoccupation with choosing or using equipment in a way that "makes", or causes "involuntary" reactions...? (or a preoccupation with "proof" via pictures...). I'm going to be away for the next few days so won't be posting for a while... Anyway, bye for now, it's been fun debating- as always! ;D Derek
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jun 21, 2007 22:32:18 GMT 1
PS (as it were ) Do you have a reason why not? Derek
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Post by heather on Jun 21, 2007 22:57:43 GMT 1
Well you have got me there, Derek, havent a clue what 'non touch' is, and in many years of study, have never come across this term. Before you disappear off for a few days, can you explain, or do so when you return, so as not to leave me in suspenders?!! ;D I do agree that JC would have been better to use the word 'closing' rather than 'clenched'. I dont think for one minute that you are 'weird' - it is just unusual for someone who, presumably is very Baucherist, to be so 'attached' to the snaffle! Of course it is possible to ride high school movements in a snaffle, nearly all of my trainers have been fairly Baucher orientated, including Luis Valenca, but all have also considered the double bridle to be the ultimate tool of refinement and that it is the 'icing on the cake' of communication., and the snaffle reserved for the novice horse. Out of interest, what was your own riding background, pre Craig? But yes, I do have a very considerable preoccupation with proof via pictures, I do think that they give a very good idea of general standards of training, even if perhaps not these esoteric subtleties. Heather
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Post by suewhitmore on Jun 21, 2007 23:28:18 GMT 1
Heather, I bet you look great in suspenders.... at least I imagine that's why Derek is leaving you in them. Non touch sounds to me like one of wonderfully pretentious terms of dubious philosophical value that men so often use to impress other men. We women are *far* too stupid to understand.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jun 22, 2007 0:20:35 GMT 1
Well, perhaps it's a different description of something you do know. It's the absolute essence of how I try to ride. I'd use the term "touch" to mean what is often referred to as "contact". I prefer the term because of the nuance. How light is "light touch"? Well, as light as you can imagine it - literally, the rider's imagination is the only limit! I'd then use the term "gentle" instead of "soft" (though I think the two sound fairly interchangeable) and then "firm". Non-touch is what happens when you no longer have any physical contact. This assumes that the horse has "decided" to release the bit and carry it hanging hanging free from his poll (hence it requires the horse's mental consent to release the mouth and relax at the poll). When the horse's mind is with the rider, there is no need for any "physical" contact with the mouth. The only touch is "mental". So, even "light" is only required if the horse isn't mentally with the rider . The way to test for this is "descent of the aids", as described by Faverot de Kerbrech. Non-touch (= descent of the hand / descent de main) is achieved in 4 stages. First, the fingers open only enough to go from light to non-touch. This is invisible to the eye - only the rider and the horse know about it. The second is to lower the hand a little. The third stage is to allow a few centimetres or rein out and the fourth stage is riding on the buckle. The aim is to ride in descent of the aids (legs too!) at all times, if possible. When you can perform any movement you like (eg canter to rein back) without even having to go to light, then the horse is "in self-carriage". If you need to go even to light, then he isn't any more. Hence why it has to be "felt". And yes, it is easier said than done! You're right, this is taking subtlety to a pretty esoteric level and that's precisely what makes it such fun for the horse and the rider... I agree about the double bridle helping increase precision, by the way. Again, I've got no objections at all. I'd just like to refine my use of the single bit as far as possible too. (I'm weird like that!) Totally non-existant! lol - Unless you count sitting on a cob about three times ;D Right, I'm definitely off now, I'll try to clear that image of suspenders out of my mind Derek
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Post by suewhitmore on Jun 22, 2007 1:30:47 GMT 1
If Craig is a Master, does that make Heather a Mistress in suspenders?
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Post by Amanda (S Yorks) on Jun 22, 2007 8:19:55 GMT 1
Please don't wrap this thread up, it's really interesting!
This is basically the situation I found myself in. My mare would go beautifully from behind, really stepping through, swinging her back and stretching up and over her topline, but we'd hit a dead end because she'd never relax through the jaw and poll. If you took a photo and chopped her off at mid-neck it would be beautiful, if you put the front bit back on it just wasn't right. It was at this point that my trainer (very classical herself and not generally a fan of the pelham) suggested the pelham, and it really made a huge difference to my mare.
I have been riding her in a baucher mullen mouth recently and have found that she will go very nicely in it in walk, so long as I don't touch the reins - at all. I can have a contact but that's it, I can't open or close my fingers if I want to maintain relaxation. This is quite difficult to do and is a test of my skill as a rider. It works nicely, until I need to change something. For example in the wind on Wednesday she took exception to the bottom corner of the school and kept dropping her inside shoulder and cantering sideways. Nothing I could do about it, no amount of leg in the world was helping and the minute I touched the rein she opened her mouth and yawed at me. In the pelham I can simply close my fingers on the outside rein, apply a touch of inside leg to maintain the bend and head off the spook.
Derek, you mentioned that the horse needs to allow the relaxation of the poll to occur, and I believe this is where my mares problems start. Physically she's not had a great life, she suffered a serious sacroiliac strain at a very young age and has a lot of physical inhibitions which stem from this (more psychological than actual, particularly at this point when she's had lots and lots of rehab work - schooling, therapy in the form of bowen, chiro, reiki, etc, tack changes, etc). She's also a very dominant character and submission doesn't rate highly on her list of things to do! She's also a very obvious horse and doesn't suffer fools gladly, makes her feelings known to anyone with a mile radius and as a result is quite easy to read.
She likes the pelham. Exactly why I don't know but it suits her. She understands what the curb action is asking her to do, whereas I don't think this is the case in a snaffle and as a result she resists (if she doesn't understand something her first response is to switch off and not try. If you push the issue she gets angry so it's a case of persuasion & babying her through that initial reaction).
In her case, after 4yrs of working on bringing her body back to health, it was deemed, by myself, my 2 instructors and 2 of her body workers, that it was better to use the pelham to achieve the final stage of an "outline" given that the hindquarters, back, etc were all working correctly, vs continue to let her go with her neck & head being carried incorrectly and potentially undo all the work that had already been achieved.
I doubt that she'd need the pelham if she'd never had her injury, reacted differently to new requests and didn't have all the baggage that she does.
Sorry this is long, it's just interesting applying the thoughts of both yourself and Heather to my own mare.
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Post by suewhitmore on Jun 22, 2007 8:42:12 GMT 1
I doubt that she'd need the pelham if she'd never had her injury, reacted differently to new requests and didn't have all the baggage that she does. You still talk as if the pelham bit is a necessary evil rather than a different tool. This is why I refrained from commenting on this thread, I've never understood the big deal in using whatever is most appropriate to the horse you are riding. The problem today is that because curb bits are thought to be so "evil" and unkind, people are not taught to ride with double reins. Once the young teachers don't know, the skill beomes lost and using any type of curb bit correctly becomes arcane knowledge rather than a straighforward practical skill that is taught as soon as you have learned not to hang on to the bit.
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Post by heather on Jun 22, 2007 9:17:18 GMT 1
Sue, you ARE naughty ;D! But it sounds a lot more fun! Derek, with respect, if you have only been riding approximately five years, if my memory serves me correctly, that is about the time that Craig started doing clinics over here, your experience of equitation overall, is limited only to the work that you have done with him. I first saw Nuno Oliveira ride, when I was 13 years old at the 1966 HOYS, and knew there and then, that was how I wanted to ride. But of course, in that day and age, there was no one here who could teach me this. But as an artistic type and a musician, I guess that the elegance and lightness inspired me to find out as much as I could for myself. I always strove to sit as still and quietly on a horse as possible, and found ways that enabled me to do so, by experimentation. It was due to this that I found out the simple biomechanics of syncronising my movement with that of the horse, and at fifteen years of age, people started asking me who I trained with. I was already helping friends with their riding, and was on course for a career in science, when I was trying a show jumping horse ( yes, I also used to show jump, wasnt always content just to stay on the ground!!) at a dealers yard, and another lady there was also trying one. This was the then chairman of the BSJA's wife, and she asked my Father who taught me to sit so still in canter. My Father replied that I had been watching cowboy films, ;D which was quite true, as they seemed to sit so effortlessly glued to the saddle! She asked me if I could teach her what I was doing, and I showed her how to do it. At that moment, I knew that I wouldnt be going into science, and would be a riding teacher. And I have been ever since. I had my own riding school from leaving school, and now I regret this, because it left me unable to go abroad to train at that time, and by the time I was free enough to go, Nuno Oliveira had just died. But at least we had Capt Desi Lorent here for some years. Desi, was not the greatest horse trainer in the world, as I came to realise afterwards, but he was one of the greatest rider trainers when it came to refinement of the aids. I know I would never have learnt a fraction from my subsequent trainers, had I not been to him first. I have been all over Europe, watching the best competition dresssage riders, as well as classical, I had the privilege to know Dr Reiner Klimke, and was able to ask him things about the German school. My trainer at that time, was German trained ( grew up there, and at boarding school in N Germany her teacher was ex SRS Bereiter) Dr Margaret Cox. We went to international competitions, World Equestrian Games at the Hague, European Championships, Aachen, and many others. I went to numerous clinics to watch the major international trainers teach, and whilst I did not always like what I saw, I still learnt a lot from the experience, and it trains the eye to observe keenly. This is why I am also so adamant that photos are a help in discernment. Eleven years ago, I was lecturing at the Equitana in Kentucky, and met Dr Bill Sanders, a Lusitano breeder from CA, and his wife Lynda. We became firm friends over the next four days, and when I returned home, Bill and Lynda invited me to go to Luis Valenca's with them, as Bill already trained with him. Luis is not an easy man to get to have lessons with as he is so sought after! I had an assessment with him, and he happily agreed to teach me, and I have been going to him ever since. He is Nuno Oliveira's cousin, and perhaps the most revered of all trainers and teachers itoday n Portugal. Co founder with Dr Borba of the Escola Portuguesa de Arte Equestre. Luis has trained literally hundreds of horses to the highest levels of equestrian art, and yet he remains the most modest, unassuming, funny, warm and wonderful man, absolutely not a shred of ego, and a TRUE Master in every sense of the word. This was Luis at the Lisbon Festival, when he was show president, and was honoured with a huge ceremony on the last afternoon. Over 70 of his most illustrious students and famous classical riders from all over the world, had flown in to be there, and the arena was filled with them, all riding Lusitano stallions, plus the entire Escola. There wasnt a dry eye in the stands. I would like to post the pic of Craig in what I presume is piaffe, on a black horse on his website, for comparison, but do not have his permission. But Luis notwithstanding, I have been also, not to train, but to observe, to Anja Beran in Germany, her trainer, Manuel Jorge de Oliveira -himself a working student of Nuno for four years- Michel Henriquet in France, and Rodrigo Costa Matos in Portugal in the last few months. I do find that Craig's students become a little too evangelical, as I know of at least one other who has only been riding about the same length of time as you, and whilst you do not claim to be an 'expert', the other is hailed by the uninitiated as a 'Classical expert' and certainly does nothing to dispel this myth!! Now, I am not saying that you cant learn a lot in five years, but it can never replace the experience of working with hundreds of horses and riders in a lifelong career, and it does hugely rankle those of us who have spent a lifetime of learning, and still continue to learn!! I hope that this will not put you off coming to the conference. I am not going to try to impress you, or even change your mind . The fact that you are coming, means that you are open minded, and I look forward to having a lengthy natter to you when we have time, probably at the barbecue. Heather
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Post by heather on Jun 22, 2007 9:30:32 GMT 1
I doubt that she'd need the pelham if she'd never had her injury, reacted differently to new requests and didn't have all the baggage that she does. You still talk as if the pelham bit is a necessary evil rather than a different tool. This is why I refrained from commenting on this thread, I've never understood the big deal in using whatever is most appropriate to the horse you are riding. The problem today is that because curb bits are thought to be so "evil" and unkind, people are not taught to ride with double reins. Once the young teachers don't know, the skill beomes lost and using any type of curb bit correctly becomes arcane knowledge rather than a straighforward practical skill that is taught as soon as you have learned not to hang on to the bit. Now, there Sue, you have hit the nail squarely on the head- absolutely. Amanda, it is unusual for a horse to be able to work really 'through' from behind without relaxation of the jaw, which permits relaxation of the poll, which in turn permits release of tension everywhere else. This is why I use the pelham/curb, to achieve relaxation of the whole horse first , the state of 'losgelassenheit' in the German school, in order then for the horse to become 'durschglassigheit'- which apparently literally means 'letting the light through', a lovely concept, although so often mistaken these days. If you clench your own teeth and jaw, it will set off a whole chain reaction of tightness that can extend even to the back and stomach. For me, relaxation of the jaw is the first step to 'throughness' in the rest of the horse- see the pics in the early part of this thread, of the Luso x TB mare, Luchia. Through lateral work to engender suppleness, many transitions and a lot of use of rein back to engage the hind end, and ultimately, transitions within the pace, the horse gradually builds the strength and carriage to perform the higher movements. I see so many people stuck for years at the lowest levels, purely because they wont experiment to find the right bit for the horse, which may well not be a snaffle of any variety. But a lot of horses go well in a Baucher snaffle, as the hanging cheek resembles the feel of a pelham being suspended in the mouth, and the horse accepts it subsequently. Great that you have an instructor who is so open minded!! Heather
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Post by Amanda (S Yorks) on Jun 22, 2007 9:53:00 GMT 1
In some ways I do feel that it is, though I suspect this has more to do with the way other people react to me using it, vs how I feel when I'm riding my mare. I get fed up of being asked if my mare is strong because she's in a pelham and discovered long ago that there's no point trying to explain my reasoning behind using it to the people that ask this question (but no, she isn't strong in the conventional sense. She's actually very sensitive and light in her mouth).
I should just accept the lovely work my mare gives me in the pelham and let go of all the hang-ups I have from long ago as far as snaffle vs pelham goes. Both my instructors assure me that the work we produce is correct so really I shouldn't worry about it.
Technically she wasn't "through" as such but all the ingredients were there, all that was lacking was the relaxation of the jaw. As soon as we got that, bam, everything else just flowed.
I've only put her in the baucher as I found she was overbending in the pelham during in-hand sessions and when walking out after a long spell out of work. The baucher worked well up to a point but now she's getting to the fitness level where I can ask a bit more of her the same old problems are representing and it's clear now that she much prefers the pelham.
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Post by heather on Jun 22, 2007 9:58:31 GMT 1
Amanda,
Well the best thing of all is that you are listening to your horse, and not to outsiders, who can all too easily influence those not as strong minded as you obviously are- good on you!
Heather
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Post by Zuzan on Jun 22, 2007 12:41:57 GMT 1
I do find that Craig's students become a little too evangelical, as I know of at least one other who has only been riding about the same length of time as you, and whilst you do not claim to be an 'expert', the other is hailed by the uninitiated as a 'Classical expert' and certainly does nothing to dispel this myth!! I think that what I get from those who have been taught be Craig Stevens is a sense of self assurance and confidence and I can see passion about the methods Craig uses as well I would not call this evangelical as I that implies a kind of dogma is involved which I think is anything but the truth Now, I am not saying that you cant learn a lot in five years, but it can never replace the experience of working with hundreds of horses and riders in a lifelong career, and it does hugely rankle those of us who have spent a lifetime of learning, and still continue to learn!!
I think someone who has learnt as an adult can bring a whole set of experiences that those who were lucky enough to ride as children etc cannot, I also think that when it comes to imparting knowledge that someone who has very conciously learnt (anything at all) has an excellent grounding to commmunicate as all their learning has been a concsious effort .. as children I think we learn much not from what we are told and conscious of but really from experience which isn't necessarily the best grounding for passing on an communicating skills (not just riding/equestrianism)
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piglet
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Post by piglet on Jun 22, 2007 12:43:01 GMT 1
I have been following this thread with great interest - sorry to barge in on it but I have been advised to try a pelham with two reins with my mare quite often. I am ready to take the plunge, but am quite confused as to which mouthpiece may suit her…
My Connie X ID mare is now nine, but has had quite significant time off with various leg problems, which before they were diagnosed, caused her to compensate and build up quite unbalanced musculature, as you might expect. We are starting back down the dressage route again and have a very sympathetic instructor who works very much from subtle seat aids - so far, so good. My horse has wilful, is a dominant mare and always had a tendency to nap. She can have a temper tantrum every now and again, where she will just refuse to go off the leg, shakes her head and generally threatens to go up. She also does little leaps when excited about her work - she seems to love learning, but gets bored quickly. While there is no shortcut to getting her body more balanced, I feel that having arguments when we school cannot be helping her!
Due to her stiffness through her legs and back, she finds bending very difficult on the right rein, and will overbend on the left. She used to evade terribly, taking hold of her old full-cheek, French-link bit, crossing her jaw and careering off to the opposite corner, all to get out of a 20-metre circle.
Everyone who has seen her work has said that she is a highly intelligent mare, very quick to learn (good and bad, lol) and because of this, her mind needs to kept occupied. She is currently in a hanging cheek French-link, but while her downward transitions in the school are good, she does resist contact in this bit quite strongly, and it takes a fair amount of persuasion for her head to come down. In trot she goes around with quite a high head-carriage, and she is almost always on her forehand - obviously this is mostly through her being so green, but she feels so amazing when she does actually work through - I just can't seem to maintain it before the head goes up again and I really don't want to put huge amounts of pressure on her mouth, it doesn't feel right to me.
Out hacking and out competing, I think it's fair to say that we have braking issues - her finest moment being losing the plot and taking off in a show ring cob class. When she does this, she hollows her back and sticks her head in the air - she doesn't lean on the bit with her head down. The judge loved her, despite her antics, and recommended a rugby pelham with two reins at that time, but since then she has been injured and we have started very much from scratch again.
My new instructor also thinks that a pelham with two reins is our possible solution - but I am confused as to what mouthpiece to try. I've always been told that straight mouthpieces would give her something to take hold of and run through, and I don't like the nutcracker action of single-jointed bits (she also has a low palate, with not much room in her mouth). Then again, double-jointed mouthpieces on pelhams are said to invalidate the action. I am so confused - what's best to try with a strong cob mare who knows her strength, but who is very sensitive? When behaving, she will come back from canter on a hack from fingertip pressure on a snaffle, but when she's misbehaving, she is like a tank… I could never ride her with roundings, but a little pressure on a curb rein may just give us the help we need and hopefully she'll realise that giraffe movements aren't always the most comfortable…
Thanks for any guidance anyone can give me…
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