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Post by Amanda (S Yorks) on Jun 18, 2007 14:55:35 GMT 1
I don't know about suddenly, it was a gradual process for my mare. For her it was more a case of her having got set in her ways and needing something to make a change clearer to her, the curb action does this. In a snaffle she will set her neck against what she perceives to be excess pressure and once we're in this cycle it's pretty much impossible to break. Using the pelham gives an alternative rein action which doesn't have the same associations for her and also seems to send a clearer message. Once she's got this in her head I can go back to working her in a snaffle and get the same results. Unfortunately we have a lot of stop & starts in our training (lots of reasons, mainly lameness issues) and after a long break she tends to go back to her old way of going and it takes a while to re-educate her.
I wouldn't use it on a young horse who I could teach about the bit & rein aids from the word go but my mare got to the age of 11yrs having never known what the bit meant beyond contact = stop (not that she ever paid much attention to that either). I think it's a useful tool for remedial schooling.
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holly
Olympic Poster
Posts: 511
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Post by holly on Jun 18, 2007 15:02:48 GMT 1
good question bhpride, az would work in an outline to a degree in his french link, but never seamed quite happy in hi mouth and tight through his kneck. Because of this i would ask for long and low to allow him to relax and stretch into the bit and through his back. But when asked to hold him together a little more he would fight the rein contact, because it was simply easier to work on his forehand rather than having to use his back and hindes. I felt that if az could stick his nose in the air to avoid any sort of contact or lean more on one side than the other he would. Horses do not automatically work in an out line when a rider is on bored. They need to be shown how to hold them selves and for the rider to work in harmony with the horse. Well i am reckoning. Any way, when the pelham was put in today and the flash remove, it was like a breathe of fresh air for him. I am assuming he was happier with the feel in his mouth and i could use very slight pressure to ask him for what i needed. Do not get me wrong i did not think oh this will fix all my problems, but by releasing the pressure and obviously the fit in his mouth and obviously the way the pressure is applied over his mouth i beleive we had a much more controlled in tune ride than i have ever had with him. He lifted so easil and softened to the degree at one point he went with his nose on the floor, in walk this was. But this is a great tool for az beacuse he is young because he will build all the correct muscles up. did that help at all. I loved it for my boy hope we continue to go from strength strength now. I think az thought i can breath with out that flash.
I thought that in responce to above that is why i never tried this bit, untill i read this thread. All horses are differnt including the shape of there mouths, and they do say it is not the bit it is the hands that hold them, but if a horse is not happy in his mouth with a bit for whatever reason then age should not be brought into it. Again the bit is not brakes , and many of us would love to think we could ride bitless, but unfortunatly this is not always possible. Az can be a highley strung chap and is very clever and after todays ride i am one happy bunny, him being four or not. He liked it and so did i and i think that is all that matters.
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Post by bhpride on Jun 18, 2007 15:20:39 GMT 1
That's brilliant so it really all comes down to the individual horse and how they work and react to the aids by the sound of it I'm in work right now so can't read everything properly but will print everything out, need to learn more lol
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Post by julz on Jun 18, 2007 15:49:33 GMT 1
Quick question, if a pelham suddenly makes a horse work better/in an outline etc..is it a shortcut? Why wasn't the same acheieved before the bit was used? I'd be unhappy with myself/downright depressed if I couldn't work a horse correctly in anything other than a pelham I personally wouldn;t say it was a shortcut... but (and having done this) trying to teach Seamus to go in an outline, with softening his jaw, allowing him to drop his nose etc, and all I got was a battle of wills on the reins, the more I aksed, the more he set his jaw..... I put him in a pelham, and suddenly he knew what I was asking for.... schooled him a bit in it....for a few days, then swopped back to mullen mouth snaffle.... Now he knows what Im asking for, he's more than happy to do it. Only thing now is he tends to overbend in it....any idea's? All in all he's a different horse in it! Holly - Your experience today is encouraging! Well Done!
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Post by bhpride on Jun 18, 2007 15:54:17 GMT 1
That's extremely interesting Julz, I found it v.hard to get my horse in an outline at first (in a snaffle) Aids x 10 as with any youngster...but if this makes teaching the horse the nec aids easier then I can see why it's good. So long as it helps and the horse finds it easier to understand I'd rather do it that way with a youngster than the way I did before
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Post by julz on Jun 18, 2007 16:03:15 GMT 1
when we first got seamus he was ridden in an eggbut snaffle... my niece did a fair bit of jumping, but together with his excitement of jumping and her electric bum he was often a bit hard for her to stop... (she was built like a stick, he build like a tank) so a flash was applied.... When I wanted to show him, i bought him a pelham... unknown to me, at the time, the snaffle didnt fit...had never fitted him, and more than likely was pinching him!! so when i realised that, I flung it out and got him a mullen mouth snaffle which is exactly the same as the pelham but without the pelham bars... he knows exactly which bit he has in, but always goes better in the pelham.
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emily99
Intermediate Poster
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Post by emily99 on Jun 18, 2007 16:09:36 GMT 1
My boy is schooled at home in a french link loose ring, in which he has his good days and bad days. For showing he goes in a mullen mouth pelham with elastic curb and goes like a dream!
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Post by julz on Jun 18, 2007 18:19:46 GMT 1
Emily99, why don't you try schooling your boy in a mullen mouth snaffle?
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emily99
Intermediate Poster
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Post by emily99 on Jun 18, 2007 18:25:13 GMT 1
I have lunged him in one, but its about an inch too big. I don't tend to do a hell of alot of just schooling with him, whenever i jump him or hack him he goes in either the pelham or a 2-ring happy mouth bubble bit.
He's quite quirky.. on a good day he'll be an angel in the snaffle.. other days he won't!
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jun 18, 2007 18:28:00 GMT 1
Hi all, It's a very interesting topic! The snaffle and curb bits have fundamentally different actions and it's the combination of using the two actions together that gives the double bridle it's effect when used correctly. It's perfectly possible to ride a horse on either, however, and the side effects and "challenges" encountered will be different. "Controlling" horses results from a combination of elevating and flexing the horses head and neck. The fundamental effect of a snaffle it is to elevate the head and neck, while the fundamental effect of the curb is direct flexion (you can think of direct flexion as the horse yielding the poll). Neither are much real use, however, unless the horse has first yielded the lower jaw (which is a reflection of psychological relaxation in the horse). To work well, the snaffle should be jointed, since this allows the rider to create effects on only the corner of one side of the mouth, though this can be a problem if the rider "pulls" in any way, since that will cause the bit to fold and touch the roof of the mouth. Note that this is actually how snaffles are designed to operate. If the horse "pulls" or "braces" (sticks his nose out), then the bit begins to act on the bars and the "nutcracker" action creates pressure on the roof of his own mouth leading him to elevate the head to escape. (it's a form of self-regulated punishment, if you like ) If the rider pulls, however, this also creates pressure on the roof of the mouth. The problem is that, since the horse isn't the one causing the pressure, it doesn't go away when he elevates. He can't find a way to stop the pressure and so may get extremely p*ssed off This can be reflected in head tossing, opening the mouth and generally appearing to be "not accepting the bit". As the problem gets bigger, the rider may also tighten on the reins and pull even more... Unfortunately, one way of dealing with this problem of a rider whose horse thinks they pull (even if they think they don't!) is using a drop or flash noseband to stop the horse opening his mouth. This doesn't fix the problem, though, it just makes the appearance change. It also makes it very difficult to get the mobilisation of the lower jaw which is the essential pre-requisite of lightness. The absence of this psychological yielding of the jaw is an excellent first step to having "no brakes" when the horse gets excited. Snaffles with two joints (french link) are "milder" and so can be tolerated better by the horse even if the riders hands are less than perfect. It also has a second benefit; if the horse decides to grab the bit and run for any reason, the rider can release one rein and work only on the other one. This makes it very hard for the horse to maintain a hold on the bit and can help the rider start to get things back under control. A curb bit, on the other hand, works by encouraging the horse to flex the poll to release the pressure created by the combination of bit and curb chain. In this case, the horse will "escape" from too much pressure by overbending. As heather points out, the curb works best when the bit is unjointed. Note that the horse may well flex at the poll without yielding the jaw, however. Over the course of equestrian history, there have been periods of time when snaffles were fashionable and other times when curbs were fashionable. When everyone is riding in a curb, then the snaffle appears to be like a "magic wand" as it helps resolve all of the "overbending" type problems. When the world rides in snaffles, however, the curb appears to be the "magic wand" since it helps resolve the "head in the air" and "won't accept the bit" type problems. The Pelham is an attempt to blend the two actions together into one bit with two sets of reins. It is by definition, therefore, a compromise between the two pure effects. My personal choice has been to learn how to produce direct flexion as well as elevation with the snaffle bit alone. I use a hanging cheek french link as it hangs free in the horse's mouth when he's working correctly. (This is often known as a "Baucher snaffle" in the modern day, though actually it isn't one - I don't believe it's possible to get hold of a true Baucher snaffle any more). It's often described as causing "poll pressure", though to get anywhere near doing so you'd have to be pulling on the reins quite strongly - a concept which worries me, I have to say! Riding on the snaffle alone does take a bit of practice as you have to learn to stop pulling at all, but it also gives you a high degree of skill and a very effective degree of control once you figure it out. You have to learn to "persuade" the horse to relax and yield the poll, which requires the psychological yielding of the jaw first. So, to answer the "Is a Pelham a shortcut" question, it depends on how you use it. Having the horse's head in a certain position isn't that useful unless you have his mind. My reason for choosing to use the snaffle only is that, once the horse has been educated as to how the bit works (the purpose of early work in-hand), then he can carry the snaffle without ever having to feel it against his bars. It also seems like a good idea for me to have my horse continually teach me to stop pulling (even a tiny little bit!) ;D Hope this helps, Derek
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Post by heather on Jun 18, 2007 19:06:47 GMT 1
Ah, but DOES the snaffle put pressure on the roof of the mouth Derek? Not according to Dale Myler of Myler Bits, and I agree with him! According to Dale, if you are above the horse, and you pull on the snaffle the bit goes down like a wishbone into the tongue, and into a spot on the tongue that is very sensitive, and causes the horse to want to open his mouth to avoid it. Then of course, most riders slap on a flash noseband to shut the horse's mouth! Dale showed us that the only time that the bit will make a V upwards into the roof of the mouth, is if you are on the ground and pulling on the bit, which will force the 'wishbone' upwards. This made complete sense to me. Personally, I dont like the idea of 'self regulated punishment'. I have had this argument with so many others over the years, who advocate 'fixing' the hand in a snaffle, until the horse yields the jaw. Although the rider is not 'pulling', quite often I have seen a strong fixing of the hand, which would cause this 'self regulated punishment', and which I feel is unnecessarily forceful. The way in which I was taught to use pelham/curb requires only very light 'asking' with the fingers on the reins, to achieve relaxation of the jaw, not merely the poll. The horse then carries himself lightly and the musculature builds up, as in the photos I put up earlier on this thread, with no force whatsoever. I, of course, also use the double as the end of training bit, but find that the pelham is such a good intermediate bit. Would love to see some photos of you elevating of the neck in snaffle in the way you describe, Derek, so as to clarify for the others what is meant- a picture can be worth a thousand words!! I gather that you are one of Craig Steven's students? Heather
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Post by julz on Jun 18, 2007 19:14:01 GMT 1
Yes, pics please, is that possible?
all i know about bits, (the egg butt, mullen mouth snaffle and pelham) are based on Seamus.... ie, he did not like the eggbutt because of the nutcracker action, his fleshy mouth, and quite possibly because it was too small for him, and he does like the other two...how do i know? he willingly takes the mullens himself, with the eggbut we had to practically put our hands into his mouth and open his mouth for him....
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Post by heather on Jun 18, 2007 19:18:25 GMT 1
Hi bhpride,
But WHY would you feel unhappy if you couldnt work your horse in anything other than a pelham? There are certain horses who will only ever go happily in one bit, be it snaffle of a certain type or pelham- that is why so many bits have been designed over the millenia!
I therefore listen to my horses, and allow them to tell me which bit they are comfortable in. Why would I make them go in a particular bit if they are not happy in it especially if they have been ridden forcefully in one, and the nerve endings damaged.
What actually IS a short cut in training a horse? Forcing them in draw reins, people think that this is a short cut, but it is a ticket to unsoundness in the future. The pelham shows a horse what you want, but without force, and very often, the horse ridden in the pelham for a few weeks, will happily go back into a snaffle.
The fact that the pelham removes resistance, and allows more rapid progress due to that lack of resistance, IS a short cut, yes, but one that to me makes perfect sense!
Once the musculature is built up to allow the horse to go in self carriage, most horses will go in most bits.
Heather
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jun 18, 2007 23:53:24 GMT 1
Hi Heather and all, How was Bettina's clinic this year? Well, I guess you'll be glad to hear I agree with both of you ;D, a snaffle CAN put pressure on the tongue if used in certain ways in certain circumstances - like... Which is one of many reasons I wouldn't actually want to pull on the reins in that circumstance (well, actually, I wouldn't ever want to pull on the reins - Oh, if only I were perfect... : . Instead I'd probably be making use of elevation and/or lateral flexions to release the resistance. (Obviously I'm mind-reading a bit here as to what exactly you mean by "above the horse"). ... and I respect your opinion. ;D ... that's not actually what I would describe as self-regulated punishment, though. In the case you describe, the horse hasn't done anything to create the problem, he just "failed to respond" to the signal. I regard fixing the hand like this more as "coersion". I'm not saying it's a "good" or "bad" method. I know how to do it that way and I also know other ways. I use various methods from time to time depending on the circumstance and the horse. So it's no coincidence that you get results with horses then. ;D Sorry, you've got me there. I don't know how to "see" tactile sensations Strange as it may seem, I don't actually have any photos of me riding. My fascination is in the tactile art. I'll have to get someone out with a camera one day. I guess some video would be more useful, though, and you can see Phillipe Karl doing it more or less continuously on his DVDs. Again, though, as I expect you would agree - seeing it is one thing, feeling it is quite another. Appearance can be so deceptive! Yes, Craig is one of the masters I study. I've worked with him for about 4 years now and organise clinics for him in the UK. The next one is in early August. Would you like to come along? I'm also looking forward to experiencing some of your work at the conference in July. Best wishes, Derek
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chapsi
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Post by chapsi on Jun 19, 2007 0:06:32 GMT 1
In terms of schooling, all our horses at the yard, except the children's schoolmasters, are ridden in pelhams, with double reins. They all work in a relaxed manner, even thoroughout more complex, supple exercises.
Personally I've encountered more resistance in horses in snafles than pelhams. However, light hands are essencial. As many said, and Heather explained so well, harsh hands can make any bit severe.
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