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Post by Mariaana on Dec 12, 2005 22:09:04 GMT 1
As a yard manager, I handle many horses that are not my own, so I am always cautious. Mainly because I have actually been kicked a few times, and threatened with a possible kick far too many times. So, I prefer the front end of a horse to the its back end.
My own horse (who has the sweetest temperament ever, and never kicks or bites) once kicked me by accident, because she was irritated by another horse standing near her - I went and as usual, gently put my hand on her bum to say hi - and she thought it was this other horse and booted me!
I don't really know what the BHS say but I think someone else clarified that - but the Finnish equivalent taught us never to go behind a horse you do not know or trust.
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laura
Grand Prix Poster
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Post by laura on Dec 12, 2005 22:17:51 GMT 1
I go round the back of my own all the time, i feel it is part of thier training as ponies who are around young children/dogs/pushchairs etc etc to be used to things being in close proximity to thier back legs and bottom and for them not to be alarmed by this and kick out. and me Jo .... and if Taz pricked her ears never mind spooked ... or gave both barrels at a leaf falling ...... well such a nervous horse should never have people around it without full protective gear on !!!!!!!!!!!! sorry wildrover, I know that horses are flight animals and sudden events might spook them but in my experience the majority of horse would jump or run off a bit not kick out with both barrels in such a situation. Sorry again but if you imply that anyone going round the back of a horse is heading for the pearly gates then perhaps consider this ..... if you are going under the neck and the same thing ( leaf or plastic bag) happens and horse rears / paws then you are in an even more vulnerable position as you cannot move out of the way as quickly ..... as with everything else it is not saying that anything is an absolute....... perhaps the BHS should ask the students to risk assess the situation and be able to give reasons for and against both methods ..... rather than saying that one method is always safer then the other ?? ... and fail one method completely??
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Post by Yann on Dec 12, 2005 22:18:06 GMT 1
I got an accidental kick for the same reason undoing a leg strap close to another horse, but it's the only time it's ever happened and Rio looked mortified at me hopping around in pain after ;D As far as I can remember I was taught to put a hand on the back end of the horse to warn it I was going behind when I was doing stage 1. However my two are safe as houses and I go behind them all the time quite blithely. I sometimes go under them too
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Post by Mariaana on Dec 12, 2005 22:27:18 GMT 1
LOL Yann, I go under mine as well, and you should have seen my mare's face when she realised she had kicked me by accident!! I don't like anthropomorphising but she looked like she wished the earth could swallow her!
She has never done it since, but the pain from it reminds me to make sure I let her know it's me (or my daughter) behind her!
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Post by sulasmum on Dec 12, 2005 22:43:02 GMT 1
I put my hand on the back end too to let the horse know I am there and go around them that way
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Post by marywelsh on Dec 12, 2005 22:53:51 GMT 1
when i did my exams i was taught that horse can do just as much damage with their front legs as much as there back, we were taught if you went round the back the back of a horse you would give it a wide berth or like everyone else make sure the horse knew you were there if we were ever caught ducking under the leadrope it would be trouble otter also tends to lift his front leg while waiting to go out and he has knocked my knee and boy it hurt but i am going to see my old instructer from college on tues so i will ask this question and find out what it states for the exams
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woolly
Intermediate Poster
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Post by woolly on Dec 12, 2005 23:14:38 GMT 1
The reason for not ducking under the leadrope (I only found this out the other day) is to do with the horse's vision - the horse is superb at seeing distance, and seeing behind and all around, but has a blind spot directly in front. So if you duck under the lead rope....you are ducking into the blind spot, and that could cause problems.
Walking CLOSE behind, hand on horse, is supposed to be safer, because even if the horse kicks, it can't get full extension on the kick. So you either walk close behind (to limit the power or damage of any kick should it happen) or you walk out of kicking range altogether.
As I said, I've ducked under the leadrope myself many times. But I'll certainly think twice about it, now that I know the reason (which seems to make sense).
And something for us all to remember is that statistically many more people are seriously hurt or killed, handling or riding a horse with whom they are VERY familiar, than handling or riding a new or unfamiliar horse. We forget to take the precautions we usually take with a new or unfamiliar horse, or think we don't need to.....and then the familiar horse does something completely out of the blue (like stumble unexpectedly)....and that's when we get hurt.
Anyway, I have no idea if it's still BHS policy, but the blind spot thing is the reason for it.
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Post by Mariaana on Dec 12, 2005 23:26:30 GMT 1
I cannot see how your whole body can disappear from the horse's sight if you duck under the leadrope ( which I rarely do because of other safety reasons) - the blind spot right in front is quite narrow and limited but equally, a horse has a blind spot right behind him, so how can that be less of a risk than the blind spot in front??
I would NEVER walk right close behind a horse - I am much more confident I can tackle their teeth (than their back end)! How on earth can that be considered safer??
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laura
Grand Prix Poster
going for a splash
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Post by laura on Dec 12, 2005 23:47:57 GMT 1
well I think this just goes to show ......... they are dangerous both ends ;D ;D ;D there are no absolutes ....... with animals more than anything ....... a huge part of my job ( I work with people that have learning difficulties and present challenging behaviour) is risk assessing ....... both the formal stuff and the minute by minute stuff. It is similar in that you can never remove the risk entirely , the risk is inherant in the task. The tricky part is to mimimise as far as humanly possible ....... then just get on with it !!!!!!!!!! There will always be the unexpected and we accept that no matter how many precautions we take incidents will happen .... ... sometimes with hindsight it will be because the precautions we took were not adequate - sometimes it would not have mattered one jot what precautions we took the outcome would be unforseen ...... and sometimes it does not matter what you do someone will ALWAYS have done it differently and avoided the incident altogether ( with hindsight OF course) ;D ;D
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Post by circusdancer on Dec 13, 2005 0:18:30 GMT 1
Well said Laura, it goes without saying that both ends are dangerous. I wonder what we are giving off to the horse by giving it a wide berth at either end. This will come down to different ways of thinking which is a good basis for debate on this thread. Francis is conscipuous by his absence in starting it though.
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jan
Elementary Poster
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Post by jan on Dec 13, 2005 8:24:34 GMT 1
My grandfather used to breed shire horses, his view was always hand on back of horse, running down to the bum, and walk as close to the bum as possible - that way if they did kick you were never kicked by the edge of the hoof and the horse could not get much of a swing going - I do this to mine and i usually talk (or if feeling really daft) sing to him as I go - he just stands there and doesn't bat an eyelid.
but I agree - if you don't know the horse - be aware, very aware.
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Post by kas on Dec 13, 2005 9:08:27 GMT 1
It's different if you don't know the horse isn't it. I've been to visit some people's horses from this site and they can vouch for the fact that I'm very careful about back ends, and wouldn't duck under their leadrope. I might have to get in front or behind the horse when giving reiki, but it's a bit different because I make sure they are very aware of where I am, in other words as safe as possible. My own horses it's different. Someone mentioned that NH trains the horse to move out of your way, but say you want to move from one side of their bum to the other then surely it's going to pass your body at some point? My NH training is to get the horses ready for the unthinkable, it might not always be me moving carefully around them. So they are very used to me changing eyes (front and back - you change eyes behind as well don't you?). I'd put my hand on them as I went, but do spend a lot of time working at close quarters. I do a sort of long lining where I'm walking right up by their behind. This is one of the benefits of all the rope throwing that some people ridicule, ropes are thrown around their bodies with energy, including around their tail and back legs. Maybe this is why when I took Fire to a demo as a 3 yr old, and a kid ran down a bank and literally through her tail, nothing nasty happened.
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Post by Val (Toons&co) on Dec 13, 2005 9:19:03 GMT 1
I too was taught in riding schools to never go behind until I started western. My teacher explained to me that if you go behind but stay really close to the horse (and touch him to let him know what you're doing), if he kicks it will hardly hurt as the foot will meet you before any energy has been released (strength of blow given by speed - sorry find it hard to translate) while if the horse throws his front leg while you're bending under his neck, you'll have a broken jaw.
To tell you the truth, I go behind all my horses because they have been trained that way and none of them have ever kicked but there are two mares at the yard who are renowned kickers and will aim at you the minute you come in their stable - I would not trial my teacher's theory on them and do prefer to go under their neck (they don't paw). I also advise small children to avoid horses' behind as the horses can't see them and could easily be chasing a fly at the wrong time.
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anon
Grand Prix Poster
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Post by anon on Dec 13, 2005 9:42:50 GMT 1
Traininmg for the BHS exams is all about awareness - awareness that you may be handling an unknown horse - it may be excited, new to the yard, young, scared, nrvous etc.
The BHS want you to demonstrate awareness of potential problems - and not just assume that because YOUR horse has always proved to be safe to walk behing - that ANY horse is safe.
And then to demonstrate a safe and effective way of moving around a horse whether its in a stable, tied up in a yard, loose in a field - any circumstance
As you get more aware - you may move around a strange horse - and work out whether THAT horse would be safe to go behind, or more dangerous to go in front of!
And if you were handling a difficult horse - it may be short-racked and not tied up to a low tie point on a long leadrope - so the difficulties of going in FRONT of him are minimised - ie you are not ducking under a low leadrope
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natalia
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Post by natalia on Dec 13, 2005 9:57:38 GMT 1
NO way would I ever go that close to the back end! I work with lots of unknown horses and some of them do kick out, some with all fours. The majority of real kickers that I meet, should I go that close to the back end would probably push you over and then kick you, ie, shift backwards quickly and send you flying, then you don't stand a chance. I would also never go directly in front as have been kicked in the stomach once by a mare who was rather quick with her front feet. Its far safer to give a really wide berth than to put yourself in any danger. I have always been taught that you should never go round the back that close. I would always exercise caution when picking up back feet too, its amazing how many younger horses have a go at cow kicking. And I don't think anyone should evr even fully trust their own horse either, mine wouldn't dare kick me now but I still wont go near his behind if hes tied on the yard, as he will kick any other horses coming to close. For this reason when being groomed etc hes tied in his stable.
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