Question about pelvic rotation etc.

[lucitania]

I have been offered a horse on loan, but he has two issues:
1) I was told he has had and recovered from pelvic rotation. He is now building up muscle and still find cantering on one rein difficult. (I was told) What is pelvic rotation, i.e. how serious is it and can the horse recover from it completely? (or is he always to be bad on one rein?) Is it a real specialist job to ride and school a horse like this, or are the muscles likely to develop through everyday activities and prelim. dressage stuff? Is a horse like this likely to have a relapse, i.e. is this a reoccuring condition which might end up coting me a lot of money in vet bills?

2) He also weaves in the stable, and is therefore turned out as much as possible. Apparently he is very laid back otherwise. What do you lot say- could you cope with this? What exactly is the downside of weaving, apart from the horse obviously feeling distressed/uncomfortable? When the horse has to be stabled, do you just let him to get on with the weaving or is there something you can try and do? At my yard the horse can be out all day, every day. If there are others that live out completely, he could do that as well. In stable he would have other horses around. Is this likely to make a difference? I personally might find it upsetting to see the horse swinging around like that, so I am not sure. The owner says that perhaps the horse was badly treated in the stable as a baby, as she can't see any other reason for it.

I am sure that lots of you know plenty about these problems- I just wanted to know if people feel it is worth seeing a horse like this or is it a 'stay well away' situation? (the horse is said to be otherwise sweet and safe)

Thanks to everybody in advance,
L.

[lucitania]

Opinions, anyone....(as I am still here while I should be unpacking the shopping....naughty)

[specialsparkle3]

I'm afraid I know nothing about pelvic rotation,---do you have a good vet who can advise you? As for the weaving issue, I believe this hereditary, my reason being that my first brood mare was a weaver if she got upset or was left alone . None of her foals EVER saw her weave a she was always very happy with a foal at foot. 3 out of 4 of her foals were seen to weave on occasions in later life.--- The only time weaving is detrimental is 1) if they do it so much they lose weight and 2) if they actually move from foot to foot whilst weaving, then they show alot of ware in their joints.
If your horse is only an occasional weaver you should be ok with your intended regime once he's settled, if however he falls in the other categories I would think twice before committing yourself.

[annahindley]

Who diagnosed the pelvic rotation and any idea of the severity? I'll dig up a thread that describes this so- there is a fairly recent one....back soon

[annahindley]

okay, see the "back question" thread in horse health, I've pulled it up.
One other question that is important is how it happened - if the horse was involved in some heavy duty trauma, like an RTA, it is likely to be recurrent. Pelvis rotation in chiropractic terms can vary from a one adjustment and annual check-up condition to a "patient for life" scenario - this may involve 6-8 visits from a chiro per year. I have only got one patient that needs anything like this level of care. There are loads of factors such as age at injury, age now, severity, fitness, general state of health....all these things will alter the prognosis. To see it, watch the horse move and see if one "hip" (actually tuber coxae) is high and fixed....compare to a "normal" horse (lots of "normal" horses do have a degree of pelvic rotation)

[lucitania]

Thanks Anna, I will go and find that thread, or will try.

The horse is 6, apparently has been broken only this year. I assume the pelvic ahhapened somehow before he was broken. Another funny thing is that if he was broken this year, how has he managed to do RC dressage , one 1 day event (in Sept.) and a XC ride/competition? I thought schooling took a lot longer than that! (I may have misundesrtood as well, but that sounds a bit odd to me. Is it?)

[annahindley]

I guess they didn't say he did them well!!! Sounds like a lot, but perhaps he had been backed and turned away before...why do they want to put him out on loan?

[lucitania]

I don't know exactly, had a short chat with the owner who told me to call the current keeper/rider for more info. I guess the horse really is for sale but hasn't sold due to weaving, maybe the pelvis. I got the feeling that the owner wants someone to have a nice time with him amd bring him on for a good year before trying to sell him again. This is just my guess- I know this would leave me treated like a mug, but if I get a nice and safe horse for a year out of it, then why not. (I would object if I was a pro horse trainer or at least very experienced- which I am not.)

I have tried calling the current keeper (who has an eventing record from PN level, so at least she is more competent than I am!), will try again later.

Does this sound dodgy? It may be just me being paranoid, as for the past three months I have had to deal with countless liars trying to unload their problem/sick horses on me under false pretenses.

[kas]

You might need to consult others at the yard about the weaving. You can get lots of grief from people who are convinced their horses will copy. If you put a grill up he's likely to start doing something else, or maybe weaving inside.
I've got a weaver, but she lives out. When stabled I found the pen outside with door open worked 90% of the time, but she'd still weave at the fence when excited or upset.
Weaving mirrors seem to be getting good results, but you wouldn't know until you had him and tried it... so would be a risk.
I was told by an equine behaviourist that the longer I kept my horse out the better she would be about short periods of stabling. Beware, this is false advice! She was much, much worse.
I think some horses just have less tolerance for being stabled and a tendency to show stress by weaving. My horse had never been treated badly in the stable when she first started the early stages - a bit of bobbing about at feed time. I think she didn't like the bustle of other horses and people moving around outside her stable, didn't like the anticipation and waiting for feeds or being turned out either. Strangely, she loves stables! She will stand happily in one for ages with her head poking out - as long as the door is open.

[lucitania]

Sorry to pose a very basic question now....if you had a horse that was happier living out than being stabled at night, how would that work if all the other horses were coming in? Surely you shouldn't leave a horse alone in the field for the night? And if there is no field shelter, does that mean the horse shouldn't stay out. (I can't remember if there are any trees or anything or if it is completely empty)

Is there a chance that the YO would not take a weaver, out of fear that other horses would copy? (I saw a a horse cribbing for England there once, so causing damage to stable doors seems to be fine.... ;D ) I have seen a stable where instead of the the door being shut, there was a sort of a net across the doorway, not reaching the floor. Is this used to relieve the anxiety of being stabled? (that didn't look strong enough to keep the horse in, should he really kick out though) Kas, does your horse stand there with her head over the side while the door is open, does she not feel like coming out? ;D (funny thing)

[jennyb]

My horse fractured his pelvis four years ago, it has taken an awful long time and patience, but he is now able to do dressage. Only at novice level now, but we have competed successfully affiliated. He needs a couple of visits from the chiro per year, but last time she came she had to do very little and was astounded at how level (for him anyway!) he was.

[lucitania]

The pelvic rotation was diagnosed and treated by a physio called Teresa Leahey. (sp?) I have now some more info about the horse: bought as a four year old from a show horse breeder,(Dorset, I think) hadn;'t been backed by then but nicely handled. The owner bought him and hoped to back him, start him and sell him on. How she didn't notice the weaving then, I don't know. The owner gave the horse to someone on livery/loan (an event rider), but this person did not back him after all. So the horse went back to the owner, I think, and was finally backed around Christmas last year. He has then been doing hacking - is said to be very laid back and sensible despite his young age, he is six- until August. In August he went on schooling livery to the current lady -who sounds pretty decent and knowledgeable-, he didn't really have much clue about contact, outline, couldn't do a circle etc. but hacked out happily alone and in company, behaved well with a nervous/novice rider. When his schooling began, the lady felt that his inability to do left canter was not normal, and called the physio. The physio put the pelvis back ( assume this would have been about August time) and the horse has been allowed to do everything since then, although needs to build muscle and balance for left canter. He is said to have a helpful personality, he learns quickly and loves to work- he has been doing prelim dressage stuff now, working nicely and willingly in an outline with a soft mouth. He has also done some jumping and taken part in a XC competition- all this is said to be fine, no taking off or shying away. Basically, this horse is said to be happy to try everything and loves the attention that riding gives him. He has been to two dressage comps, the very first one he was quite silly and didn;t know what to do, the second one he behaved well and did everything that was asked of him. The horse has never bucked, reared, bolted or napped. (they say.... haa-haa)

The owner can't afford to pay for the schooling livery, I understand, therefore the horse hasn't been ridden for good three weeks now. The horse is difficult to sell due to weaving, hence is up for a loan. I am going to see him in about 10 days' time, this lady promised to ride him a few times and hack him out to see how he is going- although she is not expecting to find him full of steam.

The horse is a TB gelding, 16.2 age 6. Ideally I would want something a bit smaller and older..... does this sound like a good plan for someone returning to horse ownership after many years? I would like to think that I am not a complete wimp or a novice, but I am certainly not made of steady nerves either. Is it possisble for a horse this young to have good manners, be laid-back and on the whole be an easy horse? (understanding that he needs more exposure to shows and comps). On the one hand, I would like a 'been there done that' horse to start with, on the other, I feel it would be a good opportunity for me to learn more through bringing on a younger animal, with my instructor- if this horse really does have such a great temperament as described.

What does everyone think? I am curious to know, as talking to people gives me all sorts of reactions, ranging from 'all young horses are dangerous' to 'all older horses have been screwed up by people'. I am not sure who I should be listening to....

Jenny- how fantastic that your horse has recovered from what to me sounds like a serious injury. Just out of interest, how much does your chiro charge for the visit? I was told this horse's physio charged about £ 35, and that seem very cheap to me, but I don;t know what the standard charges would be.

[jennyb]

Hmm, my gut feeling on this one is that there are so many horses out there who are relatively straight forwards and problem free, that I would be tempted to say no to this one and keep looking. If you do decide to try him out, do please get him thoroughly checked out, not just by a vet but also by a physio or chiro.

The chiros/physios my horse has had in the past have charged about £35 on average. Some a little more, some a little less.

Just a foot note really, having had a horse with problems myself, I would never knowingly buy a horse which had a physical problem. I know they can come right and do well in the future, but it's always a worry - what if something happens again, what if he breaks down at a young age and I'm forced to retire him, what if he slips and aggravates the old injury - etc etc!!! In the back of my mind I'm pretty sure if he were to fracture it again, or break down in the next few years, I would have to have him PTS. He is a kicker, so would be no good as a field companion, and being an intelligent type he loves his work and gets very bored when I am on hols.

Just a thought for you....

[annahindley]

Hi, I would not be worried about the pelvis at all. It is often a common and straightforward problem that can correct relatively easily. Alot of people would've missed the fact that he wasn't right in the first place. It might be worth talking to the pohysio first, but I don't think it should cause longterm or expensive problems. I charge more than £35 BTW!!
As for the young horse thing - its true you can end up with other peoples mistakes in older horses - some youngsters are easy. I had a 3 yo on loan (as a favour) who went up the road like a police horse from day 1 (I had long reined her). I then had her full brother and he beat me! I had to send him back as I didn't want to spoil him and knew he was too much. I had an 11 yo jumper that I had to rebreak (with an awful lot of expensive help). its always a judgement call on the individual. This horse sounds nice, but people do lie. I think less so for loaning as it is easy for them to get the problem back. Also, if he were my horse I'd tell the truth - there are some straightforward and honest people in the world!
And horses are like life in that it is the horrible and new bits that teach you the most! Don't overface yourself, but don't end up with something that is boring for you - it is very satisfying to make a youngster and you are not a novice.
Let us know what happens...