Post by Admin on Aug 4, 2005 10:38:20 GMT 1
Subject : Grass and laminitis
From : JackieJATaylor
Date : 01.06.04 0:46:00 AM
Anyone who wants to know more about grass and laminitis should read this website - www.safergrass.org
These paras summarise the state of knowledge on the matter to date:
"Safest time to graze: early morning; after a night when the minimum temperature was above 40°F (5°C); on grass that is in a vegetative stage of growth (leaves, not heads) and the grass is under no stress from lack of water or nutrients. Under overcast or shaded conditions, sugar buildup should be slower.
Most dangerous time to graze: late afternoon or early evening on a sunny day; grass that is heading or flowering; anytime throughout the day if the night before had temperatures below 40°F (5°C); grass that is stressed for lack of water or nutrients; stubble left from mowing or overgrazing, especially in late fall (or winter in areas where grass stays green)."
The outbreak of laminitis we have just had was a classic scenario and totally predictable if you understand these rules. The grass was just starting to form heads (high sugar rising up the plant) we had a lot of sun (high sugar production) then several unseasonally cold nights (stress causing all that sugar to be stored rather than used up immediately).
The current knowledge states is is NOT rapid growth that is the problem per se, unless that coincides with heading or a lot of sunshine or something else that increases sugars.
If it's cloudy, wet, and mild at night and the grass grows it should be safest of all - low sun = low photosynthesis (sugar production), rain = no drought stress, warm night = no cold stress, so sugars should be low and all entirely used up each day in growth, so minimum 'sugar to the inch' of grass.
You cannot say long or short grass is safer - it depends on the conditions and growth stage. Right now, when the grass is just forming heads, long grass is lethal, and short growing leaf is safer (though no grass is safe at this time of year for a susceptable horse). After it has gone to seed and is turning brown, long grass will be safer than short, new grass. All the sugars will have been used up making the seed head.
But there is also the question of amount. Long grass may be safer than stressed overgrazed starvation paddocks, but if the horse gets to eat 10kg of the first in a day and can only get 1kg of the second - then which is more likely to cause laminitis?
Intake for most needs to be restricted right through the growing season, and that means using a grazing muzzle or strip grazing. Grazing muzzles don't work on very short grass or very long grass, but they do ensure slower trickle feeding throughout the day, as opposed to gorging for an hour or two on strip grazed pasture.
And lastly protein does not cause laminitis.
Jackie
groups.yahoo.com/group/TheMetabolicHorse
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Veronica F
Date : 01.06.04 5:59:00 AM
Thank you JackieJATaylor That is veryvery helpful and very very interesting,Thank you so so much for that infomation love Vxxx
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Veronica F
Date : 01.06.04 6:01:00 AM
Could you put this on the new forum for other guys too please as I am sure this information is going to help a lot of horses and ponies right now Thanks again love Vxxx
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Ashley
Date : 01.06.04 7:13:00 AM
Thank you also Jackie I am very grateful to you. In short Jackie whats the best thing to go by? Is it watch the grass once it starts to grow be careful or when we have a dry spell then rain etc please could you do an easy check list thanks again you have been so good in spending your time helping so many on this DG thanks again
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Claire F
Date : 01.06.04 10:05:00 AM
Thanks for the excellent info, Jackie.
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Jackie
Date : 01.06.04 11:08:00 AM
I'll put it on the other group. I think the two paras quoted fro Katy's website is about as succinct as you can get for a checklist - I know of no option but to learn the rules, and watch the weather and grass. I'll try and make it into a list when I have time, but there will always be caveats.
Jackie
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Deb
Date : 01.06.04 11:34:00 AM
Which new forum is this. Very interested in Laminitis, my gelding had it a few years ago & my mare has just been diagnosed with it due to stress from other pain.
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : pickles
Date : 01.06.04 11:38:00 AM
thanks for that jackie - much appreciated I'll stop letting them graze in the afternoon now and do it early morning instead!
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Carly
Date : 01.06.04 11:49:00 AM
Thanks for the info my pony is making very good progress but why is it that my pony was on light green grass and the ponies next door on rich luss clover grass and mine got it? not fare
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Kate
Date : 01.06.04 11:56:00 AM
Thats very intresting.
I have all ways had my horses on too much grass from lush to seeding and fat, but never had laminitis, but they are unshod with low heals and short toes and work.
A lady around the corner from us, two weeks ago turned her 2 x 6 year old cobs, unshod riders and a yearling out on a feild ungrazed all winter, even I thought it could be a problem long lush grass with seeds.The first week they looked like they could not eat a blade of grass more. But they are fine and the grass in going down and they are galloping round the feild.
Like my horses hers have never been shod.
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Val (toons&co)
Date : 01.06.04 12:11:00 AM
Kate, I am sure there are many horses out 24/7 on lush grass who will not get laminitis. Lucky for them and their owners really. Unfortunately there is a percentage of horses who will get it and it seems this percentage is much higher this year - hence the many threads on the subject. All the horses at my yard are on lush grass and far too fat (including mine who are strip grazed). Only one of the owner's is laminitic and got it again this year because of bad management really but all the others are at risk. They are also unshod - including the laminitic one. Let's just hope we remain lucky!
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Amanda (S Yorks)
Date : 01.06.04 1:11:00 PM
Kate,
Are you trying to say that you think there's a link between shoes and laminitis? That's the way I read your post.
On my yard 50% of the horses are shod, 50% are not. To date, after 2 years of being on the yard, we've only had 1 case of laminitis in a shod horse (v mild, caught it early and he's now on a management routine), the other 4-5 ponies that are prone to it are unshod and always have been.
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Wendy
Date : 01.06.04 2:33:00 PM
Another link that shows pictures of some of the lower sugar, traditional meadow grasses. Everyone knows what Rye looks like but until I found this, I hadn't a clue what the more traditional ones looked like.
www.woodland-trust.org.uk/news/spring/main.htm
I'm hoping that my pasture won't be very high in sugars. I've added lots of weeds, no clover, no rye (although some has made its own way in there) and no fertilizers for the moment. But reading the safergrass.org website, never mind meadows, it's all such a minefield!
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Wendy
Date : 01.06.04 2:50:00 PM
How do you know whether the grass is "heading", "flowering" or has "seeded"??
Also, given the "sugar to grass inch" thingy, would it be better if the hay was cut a bit longer e.g. if the mower was set to cut it at 10cm compared to 4cm?
(Can you tell we're about to cut our first hay crop?? Now struck with paranoia!)
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Wendy
Date : 01.06.04 3:02:00 PM
Found a way to I.D. many of the more common meadown grasses (always my biggest problem. Don't know what most of them look like). Try first:
www.offwell.free-online.co.uk/grass_id/ident.htm
Then, once you have the Latin species name, do a search on www.bioimages.org.uk. There are loads of plant photos on this website.
Hope it helps.
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Jackie
Date : 01.06.04 4:10:00 PM
Heading is when it shoots up a stem with 'something' budding on the top. In flowering that head then opens, and you can shake pollen off sometimes. By seeding the stem is usually lignifying, ie turning brown and more 'woody', and you can find grass seeds in the head. It's difficult to judge a first glance, and in a mixed meadow various grasses will mature at different rates.
There are dozens of factors which dictate why one horse gets lamintiis and the next does not - mechanical, hormonal, digestive, circulatory, genetic, weight, breeding etc, etc.
Jackie
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : jane
Date : 01.06.04 5:06:00 PM
Jackie with all the worry re clover for being a cause of Laminitis. Do you think that maybe it is the nitrogen in the grass where clover grows that is the cause rather than the clover? As many folks have said and i have noticed too,horses ignore it if they have lots and it is long yet still get laminitis ?
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : JackieJATaylor
Date : 01.06.04 8:34:00 PM
If more nitrogen meant more photosynthesis and therefore more sugar maybe so. But clover has so many other potetntial problems it is definately to be avoided IMO.
Jackie
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Jackie
Date : 04.06.04 0:00:00 AM
Here's a graph which shows clearly why there's been so much laminitis about. Interestingly because of the wet, cloudy weather preceeding 'laminitis week', the sugars were unusually low, so the change was that much more rapid.
www.ruralni.gov.uk/pics/graph/grsugar04.jpg
Jackie
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Val (toons&co)
Date : 04.06.04 7:41:00 AM
Interesting - also the red line. Thanks for this.
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : RJ
Date : 04.06.04 11:07:00 AM
Thank you for all of this - I have just turned my 2 (including little laminitic) into a small area - to begin with- that got wet over the winter, moss over grew the grass, & now there is some very tall headed grasses, but lots of broad-leaved weeds/herbs.
Is not the key to this problem the fact that horses should not just have grass, but also broad leaves - & pasture owners just want to see nice grass fields & no weeds?
RJ
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : for clover
Date : 04.06.04 11:20:00 AM
My fields have a sheep mix with clover and I have never had a problem the clover helps keep the earth in good order. Like all things its how you manage it
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : JackieJATaylor
Date : 04.06.04 11:27:00 AM
The question would be how high in sugars are the broad leaved weeds? If they are as high oor higher than the grass it will not help, but certainly the improved grass species we now have in all our pastures are much higher than native stock used to be.
Jackie
From : JackieJATaylor
Date : 01.06.04 0:46:00 AM
Anyone who wants to know more about grass and laminitis should read this website - www.safergrass.org
These paras summarise the state of knowledge on the matter to date:
"Safest time to graze: early morning; after a night when the minimum temperature was above 40°F (5°C); on grass that is in a vegetative stage of growth (leaves, not heads) and the grass is under no stress from lack of water or nutrients. Under overcast or shaded conditions, sugar buildup should be slower.
Most dangerous time to graze: late afternoon or early evening on a sunny day; grass that is heading or flowering; anytime throughout the day if the night before had temperatures below 40°F (5°C); grass that is stressed for lack of water or nutrients; stubble left from mowing or overgrazing, especially in late fall (or winter in areas where grass stays green)."
The outbreak of laminitis we have just had was a classic scenario and totally predictable if you understand these rules. The grass was just starting to form heads (high sugar rising up the plant) we had a lot of sun (high sugar production) then several unseasonally cold nights (stress causing all that sugar to be stored rather than used up immediately).
The current knowledge states is is NOT rapid growth that is the problem per se, unless that coincides with heading or a lot of sunshine or something else that increases sugars.
If it's cloudy, wet, and mild at night and the grass grows it should be safest of all - low sun = low photosynthesis (sugar production), rain = no drought stress, warm night = no cold stress, so sugars should be low and all entirely used up each day in growth, so minimum 'sugar to the inch' of grass.
You cannot say long or short grass is safer - it depends on the conditions and growth stage. Right now, when the grass is just forming heads, long grass is lethal, and short growing leaf is safer (though no grass is safe at this time of year for a susceptable horse). After it has gone to seed and is turning brown, long grass will be safer than short, new grass. All the sugars will have been used up making the seed head.
But there is also the question of amount. Long grass may be safer than stressed overgrazed starvation paddocks, but if the horse gets to eat 10kg of the first in a day and can only get 1kg of the second - then which is more likely to cause laminitis?
Intake for most needs to be restricted right through the growing season, and that means using a grazing muzzle or strip grazing. Grazing muzzles don't work on very short grass or very long grass, but they do ensure slower trickle feeding throughout the day, as opposed to gorging for an hour or two on strip grazed pasture.
And lastly protein does not cause laminitis.
Jackie
groups.yahoo.com/group/TheMetabolicHorse
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Veronica F
Date : 01.06.04 5:59:00 AM
Thank you JackieJATaylor That is veryvery helpful and very very interesting,Thank you so so much for that infomation love Vxxx
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Veronica F
Date : 01.06.04 6:01:00 AM
Could you put this on the new forum for other guys too please as I am sure this information is going to help a lot of horses and ponies right now Thanks again love Vxxx
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Ashley
Date : 01.06.04 7:13:00 AM
Thank you also Jackie I am very grateful to you. In short Jackie whats the best thing to go by? Is it watch the grass once it starts to grow be careful or when we have a dry spell then rain etc please could you do an easy check list thanks again you have been so good in spending your time helping so many on this DG thanks again
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Claire F
Date : 01.06.04 10:05:00 AM
Thanks for the excellent info, Jackie.
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Jackie
Date : 01.06.04 11:08:00 AM
I'll put it on the other group. I think the two paras quoted fro Katy's website is about as succinct as you can get for a checklist - I know of no option but to learn the rules, and watch the weather and grass. I'll try and make it into a list when I have time, but there will always be caveats.
Jackie
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Deb
Date : 01.06.04 11:34:00 AM
Which new forum is this. Very interested in Laminitis, my gelding had it a few years ago & my mare has just been diagnosed with it due to stress from other pain.
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : pickles
Date : 01.06.04 11:38:00 AM
thanks for that jackie - much appreciated I'll stop letting them graze in the afternoon now and do it early morning instead!
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Carly
Date : 01.06.04 11:49:00 AM
Thanks for the info my pony is making very good progress but why is it that my pony was on light green grass and the ponies next door on rich luss clover grass and mine got it? not fare
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Kate
Date : 01.06.04 11:56:00 AM
Thats very intresting.
I have all ways had my horses on too much grass from lush to seeding and fat, but never had laminitis, but they are unshod with low heals and short toes and work.
A lady around the corner from us, two weeks ago turned her 2 x 6 year old cobs, unshod riders and a yearling out on a feild ungrazed all winter, even I thought it could be a problem long lush grass with seeds.The first week they looked like they could not eat a blade of grass more. But they are fine and the grass in going down and they are galloping round the feild.
Like my horses hers have never been shod.
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Val (toons&co)
Date : 01.06.04 12:11:00 AM
Kate, I am sure there are many horses out 24/7 on lush grass who will not get laminitis. Lucky for them and their owners really. Unfortunately there is a percentage of horses who will get it and it seems this percentage is much higher this year - hence the many threads on the subject. All the horses at my yard are on lush grass and far too fat (including mine who are strip grazed). Only one of the owner's is laminitic and got it again this year because of bad management really but all the others are at risk. They are also unshod - including the laminitic one. Let's just hope we remain lucky!
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Amanda (S Yorks)
Date : 01.06.04 1:11:00 PM
Kate,
Are you trying to say that you think there's a link between shoes and laminitis? That's the way I read your post.
On my yard 50% of the horses are shod, 50% are not. To date, after 2 years of being on the yard, we've only had 1 case of laminitis in a shod horse (v mild, caught it early and he's now on a management routine), the other 4-5 ponies that are prone to it are unshod and always have been.
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Wendy
Date : 01.06.04 2:33:00 PM
Another link that shows pictures of some of the lower sugar, traditional meadow grasses. Everyone knows what Rye looks like but until I found this, I hadn't a clue what the more traditional ones looked like.
www.woodland-trust.org.uk/news/spring/main.htm
I'm hoping that my pasture won't be very high in sugars. I've added lots of weeds, no clover, no rye (although some has made its own way in there) and no fertilizers for the moment. But reading the safergrass.org website, never mind meadows, it's all such a minefield!
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Wendy
Date : 01.06.04 2:50:00 PM
How do you know whether the grass is "heading", "flowering" or has "seeded"??
Also, given the "sugar to grass inch" thingy, would it be better if the hay was cut a bit longer e.g. if the mower was set to cut it at 10cm compared to 4cm?
(Can you tell we're about to cut our first hay crop?? Now struck with paranoia!)
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Wendy
Date : 01.06.04 3:02:00 PM
Found a way to I.D. many of the more common meadown grasses (always my biggest problem. Don't know what most of them look like). Try first:
www.offwell.free-online.co.uk/grass_id/ident.htm
Then, once you have the Latin species name, do a search on www.bioimages.org.uk. There are loads of plant photos on this website.
Hope it helps.
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Jackie
Date : 01.06.04 4:10:00 PM
Heading is when it shoots up a stem with 'something' budding on the top. In flowering that head then opens, and you can shake pollen off sometimes. By seeding the stem is usually lignifying, ie turning brown and more 'woody', and you can find grass seeds in the head. It's difficult to judge a first glance, and in a mixed meadow various grasses will mature at different rates.
There are dozens of factors which dictate why one horse gets lamintiis and the next does not - mechanical, hormonal, digestive, circulatory, genetic, weight, breeding etc, etc.
Jackie
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : jane
Date : 01.06.04 5:06:00 PM
Jackie with all the worry re clover for being a cause of Laminitis. Do you think that maybe it is the nitrogen in the grass where clover grows that is the cause rather than the clover? As many folks have said and i have noticed too,horses ignore it if they have lots and it is long yet still get laminitis ?
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : JackieJATaylor
Date : 01.06.04 8:34:00 PM
If more nitrogen meant more photosynthesis and therefore more sugar maybe so. But clover has so many other potetntial problems it is definately to be avoided IMO.
Jackie
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Jackie
Date : 04.06.04 0:00:00 AM
Here's a graph which shows clearly why there's been so much laminitis about. Interestingly because of the wet, cloudy weather preceeding 'laminitis week', the sugars were unusually low, so the change was that much more rapid.
www.ruralni.gov.uk/pics/graph/grsugar04.jpg
Jackie
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : Val (toons&co)
Date : 04.06.04 7:41:00 AM
Interesting - also the red line. Thanks for this.
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : RJ
Date : 04.06.04 11:07:00 AM
Thank you for all of this - I have just turned my 2 (including little laminitic) into a small area - to begin with- that got wet over the winter, moss over grew the grass, & now there is some very tall headed grasses, but lots of broad-leaved weeds/herbs.
Is not the key to this problem the fact that horses should not just have grass, but also broad leaves - & pasture owners just want to see nice grass fields & no weeds?
RJ
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : for clover
Date : 04.06.04 11:20:00 AM
My fields have a sheep mix with clover and I have never had a problem the clover helps keep the earth in good order. Like all things its how you manage it
Subject : re:- Grass and laminitis
From : JackieJATaylor
Date : 04.06.04 11:27:00 AM
The question would be how high in sugars are the broad leaved weeds? If they are as high oor higher than the grass it will not help, but certainly the improved grass species we now have in all our pastures are much higher than native stock used to be.
Jackie