Post by Admin on Aug 4, 2005 10:26:47 GMT 1
Subject : Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : George
Date : 14.06.05 6:16:00 PM
A friend has got a recovering laminitic, he was going to be taking the BF route, but trimmer gave some advice about the grazing (possibly) which meant he had another slight attack.......
Anyway Pony has been on box rest (shoeless) for the last 2-3 months on and off.
"Tom Ryan" has been referred by Vet (who said not to take shoes off in first place) To put on "heartbar" shoes, which are plastic and clip on?
Has anyone got any experience of this? Im an advocate of BF since its brought my gelding sound, but im worried about advising my friend on this issue as i dont know enough on laminitis. Ideally I think BF should be the aim, but i doubt if the HB shoes work whether they will want to risk lameness again (quite rightly)......
Would it be better to just put shoes back on - or is there hope BF?
Any help/Info very grateful.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From :
Date : 14.06.05 6:23:00 PM
I was advised to use Heartbars on my laminitic -which I did for a few months - until I saw the changes in her feet (contracting and becoming laterally imbalanced.) I then took the plunge and decided to go barefoot; have had a sound horse for the last three years. Can't impress enough though that the management is the major factor in keeping healthy. Mine are on minimal grazing and fed hay. If the horse is already barefoot then I wouldn't go back to shoes, just my opinion!
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : George
Date : 14.06.05 6:25:00 PM
They just dont want him to go lame again.
The paddock he was on had NO grass at all on it really and he still got another attack.
Im of the opinion to stick with BF but they are so worried about him (rightly so) and just want a sound pony, im not sure they really trsut BFers cos its so "new" and farrier is recommended by vet?
Does that make sense?
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From :
Date : 14.06.05 6:32:00 PM
It certainly makes sense, we all want the best for our horses after all. Why not print some info off the BF websites (hoofrehab.com etc) and let them make an informed choice? No grazing at all might be the answer for a while, but that doesn't mean he has to be shod. If they feel shoeing is right, then that is the way to go for them. You could try Formula4Feet supplement; also check there isn't a cushings/insulin resistance problem causing the attacks.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : George
Date : 14.06.05 6:39:00 PM
Thanks anon, he is on F4F at the moment, they have seen all the websites i have access to (as above and more).
I just wanted to hear from someone that could say "liminitis is helped greatly by BF or not" if that makes sense.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From :
Date : 14.06.05 6:44:00 PM
Well George to my mind it is! The proof has been for the last three years a totally sound horse:0)
The fact that shoeing restricts circulation, increases concussion and creates trauma to the hoof is informative enough imho! Ultimately though the decision has to be theirs; after all, if you persuaded them that their horse would be fine barefoot and it had another attack, you could be the one carrying the can! We can only lead by example, and hopefully the more sound fit healthy barefoot horses that are about, the more people may begin to question their current methods. Best wishes x.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : JL
Date : 14.06.05 6:46:00 PM
If on second attack, after restricted grass/diet it may be Metabolic Syndrome, which has a whole different set of factors re: managing it.
I feel the frog getting pumped is essential for correct blood circulation to occur, and barefoot more natural BUT it could be more difficult to manage if diet is wrong ie. heels are long, frog contracted etc, perhaps HB for a while to see if horse comes sound.
Look on the Laminitis Trust Website for their views
They abhorr the Strasser Trim concept, and don't recommend any sole support at all.
sorry to hear pony in pain
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : George
Date : 14.06.05 6:50:00 PM
Thansk guys, Pone is sound now, but i wouldnt want to risk recommending anything again......
I think they will go with HB anyway - so ill keep posted on prgress.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From :
Date : 14.06.05 6:57:00 PM
he has been sound for 3 days now without bute, and hasnt got anything wrong with him he is on restricted hay as this was causing him not to come sound completly. He is not goin to go bak to how he was, i am going to get this pony the hoys if its the las thing i do!
It just makes me wonder if the "experts" really know waht they are on about for example
We were told to:
take his shoes of
Dont take them off
feed him adlib hay
dont feed them
walk them
dont walk them
barefoot trim
dont barefoot trim
bow rest
dont bow rest
feed
dont feed
WHAT THE HELL AM I SUPOSE TO BELIEVE!!! and at the end of it me a 16yr old girl got her pony sound on her own!
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : George
Date : 14.06.05 7:09:00 PM
Thats the ponies owner above guys! LOL
Ok ill explain above for you all.
Vet said DONT take off shoes, Laminitis trust agreed shoes off was best.
Pony was trimmed by KC trimmer, showed signs of imprement but had another slight attack after turnout.
I dont know who recommended he be walked - thast for when he is sound? And also when BF get an acute attck she was told they will "walk it off".....Which i had read lesewhere as well.
he is just coming off box rest - dunno who said not to when second attack occured.
He is on a feed every other day so her mum can see if its made him lame.
This poor ponies problems are all stemming from some idiot at sarecens advising them to double his feed intake, which gave him his first bad attack.....
His owner just wants her pony sound, but the lsightest thing is making him lame again - ie too rich hay....
if im totally honest his owner gets a little meotional sometimes over it (as i would if he were mine) and sometimes doesnt want ot hear what people tell her till she is ready to listen - does this make sense?
Noone can wave the magic wand and make her pony better, but so far everything she has tried has meant no success, and i think she is just running out of hope......
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : JustineJ
Date : 14.06.05 7:38:00 PM
Laminitis is a nightmare because there are so many variables. There is so much more we don't know than we do know and each horse is different, which is why you will get so much conflicting info. You will have to find what works best for the pony.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : George
Date : 14.06.05 8:28:00 PM
So should she try Heart Bar shoes? Ive been told these stopp al circulation to the foot and can cause more problems than they solve?
What would you usggest Justine?
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : JustineJ
Date : 14.06.05 8:41:00 PM
Personally I would not use heart bars but I think I would have to be guided by the professionals I am putting my trust in if you see what I mean. Of all the shoes out there, I have little to no faith in bar shoes of any kind. Has your friend got her trimmer back out again and explained the situation and asked for guidance? I would also ask someone like Jackie Taylor for advice. She is very well informed and comes on this board reguarly.
I have a laminitic who went down with grass laminitis in April. I moved him to a different field and he recovered in days and has been 100% ever since and out at grass 24/7. It's all so complicated it's not true.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : Gill
Date : 14.06.05 10:04:00 PM
My pony had laminitis two years ago and has been brought sound by going the barefoot route, dealing with management issues etc.
I can't see that heartbars will help, maybe in the short term but not for long term soundness. Just my experience and opinion.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : Cath
Date : 15.06.05 0:08:00 AM
Restricted grazing ie. nearly bare paddock has stressed grass which has more fructons which cause laminitis. The ILPH feed their laminitics on soaked hay, hay must be soaked for about 24 hours to take all the nutrients out to make it safe. I wouldn't put shoes on a laminitic if they need support then frog supports are best.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : Louise
Date : 15.06.05 10:40:00 AM
I am afraid I have only skimmed over this thread as I don't have a lot of time, but I may have an answer for you.
Please think about Cyteks - have a look at the Cytek website and speak to one of their farriers. They are very basically the next best thing to barefoot, but also give support to the pedal bone. Circulation in the hoof is important and Cyteks will allow this to happen - heart bars won't! Also, he can then stay on Cyteks forever and be happy!!
I really do highly recommend them and I'm sorry I can't say more at the moment, but please do speak to one of their farriers (contact details on the website http://www.cytekhorse.com) I do think it will be a solution to your friend's problems re shoeing.
Also, take a look at some of the other threads re feed and grazing - they are quite useful - one is "Fat Belly!" and there are some that I have just skipped over now - just do a search for laminitis.
IMO it is very important that a horse has food available to him nearly all the time - I really don't agree with starvation - a horse should eat nearly all the time. So, the best option in my opinion for a laminitic is to soak the hay for 12 hours to get any nutrients out and feed it pretty much ad lib. It is a bit smelly but if you rinse it off before you feed it it doesn't seem so bad!!
It is important not to cause the horse any unnecessary stress and restricting food will! There should be no need then to feed any hard feed at all, but if you need to for supplements/bute or anything then just use some HiFi Lite or Dengie Good-Doer.
I hope this makes things a little bit clearer for you and I'm sorry I didn't have more time! It is so difficult to know what to do in these cases, but I think if you look at Laminitis info on the web and all the threads on here that should help you to make a decision!
But please do speak to Cytek as I think it may be the answer to your friend's prayers! They will also tell you a lot more than I just have (and they know what they're talking about!!!)
Louise
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From :
Date : 15.06.05 10:52:00 AM
Grass grows hard when it is stressed. Growing grass is high in the fructans that can trigger laminitis. So putting horses onto strips of stressed grass and moving them to another every few days can actually be more dangerous for laminitics. It is a fraught subject to be sure.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From :
Date : 15.06.05 11:20:00 AM
My horse has now been on box rest for 5 weeks due to his 1st laminitis attack. He has always been barefoot and i'm using frog supports.
I agree the information you receive telling you what is right and wrong is a nightmare. Turn him out for an hour is ok says one, total box rest says another. I walk him out as was told he needs to move about even thgough he's very lame BUT he got worse and we're going backwards not forwards!
So I decided the walking out was making him worse so he's now confined and has been for past week and there is very very slight improvement ie, he moves about in the stable a bit less pain free. However, he still cannot stand on the area outside his stable without hobbling.
Can anyone tell me from experience how long it should take to see some real improvement, how long do I have to shut him up in a stable. When is it safe to walk him out without doing more damage. How long do you normally keep up with the bute, when do you reduce it or do you take each day as it comes.
It is so confusing when vets, farriers etc tell you different ways to manage laminitis. Has anyone tried magnetic boots, do they help?
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : George
Date : 15.06.05 11:26:00 AM
Which method is your horse trimmed with above?
I think the thing with laminitis is that its so specific to the horse its affecting. I think you just need to see how it goes, i think box rest is better than walking it off if your in any doubt, unless your horse is very depressed then sometimes if you can make them comfortable, ten minutes outside the stable might actually help.
There are so many factors to consider, i didnt know about the grass thing, the paddock is curretly being grazed daily by two welshys - should that be stopped?
From : George
Date : 14.06.05 6:16:00 PM
A friend has got a recovering laminitic, he was going to be taking the BF route, but trimmer gave some advice about the grazing (possibly) which meant he had another slight attack.......
Anyway Pony has been on box rest (shoeless) for the last 2-3 months on and off.
"Tom Ryan" has been referred by Vet (who said not to take shoes off in first place) To put on "heartbar" shoes, which are plastic and clip on?
Has anyone got any experience of this? Im an advocate of BF since its brought my gelding sound, but im worried about advising my friend on this issue as i dont know enough on laminitis. Ideally I think BF should be the aim, but i doubt if the HB shoes work whether they will want to risk lameness again (quite rightly)......
Would it be better to just put shoes back on - or is there hope BF?
Any help/Info very grateful.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From :
Date : 14.06.05 6:23:00 PM
I was advised to use Heartbars on my laminitic -which I did for a few months - until I saw the changes in her feet (contracting and becoming laterally imbalanced.) I then took the plunge and decided to go barefoot; have had a sound horse for the last three years. Can't impress enough though that the management is the major factor in keeping healthy. Mine are on minimal grazing and fed hay. If the horse is already barefoot then I wouldn't go back to shoes, just my opinion!
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : George
Date : 14.06.05 6:25:00 PM
They just dont want him to go lame again.
The paddock he was on had NO grass at all on it really and he still got another attack.
Im of the opinion to stick with BF but they are so worried about him (rightly so) and just want a sound pony, im not sure they really trsut BFers cos its so "new" and farrier is recommended by vet?
Does that make sense?
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From :
Date : 14.06.05 6:32:00 PM
It certainly makes sense, we all want the best for our horses after all. Why not print some info off the BF websites (hoofrehab.com etc) and let them make an informed choice? No grazing at all might be the answer for a while, but that doesn't mean he has to be shod. If they feel shoeing is right, then that is the way to go for them. You could try Formula4Feet supplement; also check there isn't a cushings/insulin resistance problem causing the attacks.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : George
Date : 14.06.05 6:39:00 PM
Thanks anon, he is on F4F at the moment, they have seen all the websites i have access to (as above and more).
I just wanted to hear from someone that could say "liminitis is helped greatly by BF or not" if that makes sense.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From :
Date : 14.06.05 6:44:00 PM
Well George to my mind it is! The proof has been for the last three years a totally sound horse:0)
The fact that shoeing restricts circulation, increases concussion and creates trauma to the hoof is informative enough imho! Ultimately though the decision has to be theirs; after all, if you persuaded them that their horse would be fine barefoot and it had another attack, you could be the one carrying the can! We can only lead by example, and hopefully the more sound fit healthy barefoot horses that are about, the more people may begin to question their current methods. Best wishes x.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : JL
Date : 14.06.05 6:46:00 PM
If on second attack, after restricted grass/diet it may be Metabolic Syndrome, which has a whole different set of factors re: managing it.
I feel the frog getting pumped is essential for correct blood circulation to occur, and barefoot more natural BUT it could be more difficult to manage if diet is wrong ie. heels are long, frog contracted etc, perhaps HB for a while to see if horse comes sound.
Look on the Laminitis Trust Website for their views
They abhorr the Strasser Trim concept, and don't recommend any sole support at all.
sorry to hear pony in pain
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : George
Date : 14.06.05 6:50:00 PM
Thansk guys, Pone is sound now, but i wouldnt want to risk recommending anything again......
I think they will go with HB anyway - so ill keep posted on prgress.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From :
Date : 14.06.05 6:57:00 PM
he has been sound for 3 days now without bute, and hasnt got anything wrong with him he is on restricted hay as this was causing him not to come sound completly. He is not goin to go bak to how he was, i am going to get this pony the hoys if its the las thing i do!
It just makes me wonder if the "experts" really know waht they are on about for example
We were told to:
take his shoes of
Dont take them off
feed him adlib hay
dont feed them
walk them
dont walk them
barefoot trim
dont barefoot trim
bow rest
dont bow rest
feed
dont feed
WHAT THE HELL AM I SUPOSE TO BELIEVE!!! and at the end of it me a 16yr old girl got her pony sound on her own!
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : George
Date : 14.06.05 7:09:00 PM
Thats the ponies owner above guys! LOL
Ok ill explain above for you all.
Vet said DONT take off shoes, Laminitis trust agreed shoes off was best.
Pony was trimmed by KC trimmer, showed signs of imprement but had another slight attack after turnout.
I dont know who recommended he be walked - thast for when he is sound? And also when BF get an acute attck she was told they will "walk it off".....Which i had read lesewhere as well.
he is just coming off box rest - dunno who said not to when second attack occured.
He is on a feed every other day so her mum can see if its made him lame.
This poor ponies problems are all stemming from some idiot at sarecens advising them to double his feed intake, which gave him his first bad attack.....
His owner just wants her pony sound, but the lsightest thing is making him lame again - ie too rich hay....
if im totally honest his owner gets a little meotional sometimes over it (as i would if he were mine) and sometimes doesnt want ot hear what people tell her till she is ready to listen - does this make sense?
Noone can wave the magic wand and make her pony better, but so far everything she has tried has meant no success, and i think she is just running out of hope......
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : JustineJ
Date : 14.06.05 7:38:00 PM
Laminitis is a nightmare because there are so many variables. There is so much more we don't know than we do know and each horse is different, which is why you will get so much conflicting info. You will have to find what works best for the pony.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : George
Date : 14.06.05 8:28:00 PM
So should she try Heart Bar shoes? Ive been told these stopp al circulation to the foot and can cause more problems than they solve?
What would you usggest Justine?
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : JustineJ
Date : 14.06.05 8:41:00 PM
Personally I would not use heart bars but I think I would have to be guided by the professionals I am putting my trust in if you see what I mean. Of all the shoes out there, I have little to no faith in bar shoes of any kind. Has your friend got her trimmer back out again and explained the situation and asked for guidance? I would also ask someone like Jackie Taylor for advice. She is very well informed and comes on this board reguarly.
I have a laminitic who went down with grass laminitis in April. I moved him to a different field and he recovered in days and has been 100% ever since and out at grass 24/7. It's all so complicated it's not true.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : Gill
Date : 14.06.05 10:04:00 PM
My pony had laminitis two years ago and has been brought sound by going the barefoot route, dealing with management issues etc.
I can't see that heartbars will help, maybe in the short term but not for long term soundness. Just my experience and opinion.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : Cath
Date : 15.06.05 0:08:00 AM
Restricted grazing ie. nearly bare paddock has stressed grass which has more fructons which cause laminitis. The ILPH feed their laminitics on soaked hay, hay must be soaked for about 24 hours to take all the nutrients out to make it safe. I wouldn't put shoes on a laminitic if they need support then frog supports are best.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : Louise
Date : 15.06.05 10:40:00 AM
I am afraid I have only skimmed over this thread as I don't have a lot of time, but I may have an answer for you.
Please think about Cyteks - have a look at the Cytek website and speak to one of their farriers. They are very basically the next best thing to barefoot, but also give support to the pedal bone. Circulation in the hoof is important and Cyteks will allow this to happen - heart bars won't! Also, he can then stay on Cyteks forever and be happy!!
I really do highly recommend them and I'm sorry I can't say more at the moment, but please do speak to one of their farriers (contact details on the website http://www.cytekhorse.com) I do think it will be a solution to your friend's problems re shoeing.
Also, take a look at some of the other threads re feed and grazing - they are quite useful - one is "Fat Belly!" and there are some that I have just skipped over now - just do a search for laminitis.
IMO it is very important that a horse has food available to him nearly all the time - I really don't agree with starvation - a horse should eat nearly all the time. So, the best option in my opinion for a laminitic is to soak the hay for 12 hours to get any nutrients out and feed it pretty much ad lib. It is a bit smelly but if you rinse it off before you feed it it doesn't seem so bad!!
It is important not to cause the horse any unnecessary stress and restricting food will! There should be no need then to feed any hard feed at all, but if you need to for supplements/bute or anything then just use some HiFi Lite or Dengie Good-Doer.
I hope this makes things a little bit clearer for you and I'm sorry I didn't have more time! It is so difficult to know what to do in these cases, but I think if you look at Laminitis info on the web and all the threads on here that should help you to make a decision!
But please do speak to Cytek as I think it may be the answer to your friend's prayers! They will also tell you a lot more than I just have (and they know what they're talking about!!!)
Louise
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From :
Date : 15.06.05 10:52:00 AM
Grass grows hard when it is stressed. Growing grass is high in the fructans that can trigger laminitis. So putting horses onto strips of stressed grass and moving them to another every few days can actually be more dangerous for laminitics. It is a fraught subject to be sure.
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From :
Date : 15.06.05 11:20:00 AM
My horse has now been on box rest for 5 weeks due to his 1st laminitis attack. He has always been barefoot and i'm using frog supports.
I agree the information you receive telling you what is right and wrong is a nightmare. Turn him out for an hour is ok says one, total box rest says another. I walk him out as was told he needs to move about even thgough he's very lame BUT he got worse and we're going backwards not forwards!
So I decided the walking out was making him worse so he's now confined and has been for past week and there is very very slight improvement ie, he moves about in the stable a bit less pain free. However, he still cannot stand on the area outside his stable without hobbling.
Can anyone tell me from experience how long it should take to see some real improvement, how long do I have to shut him up in a stable. When is it safe to walk him out without doing more damage. How long do you normally keep up with the bute, when do you reduce it or do you take each day as it comes.
It is so confusing when vets, farriers etc tell you different ways to manage laminitis. Has anyone tried magnetic boots, do they help?
Subject : re:- Question of all re laminitis and BF/Heartbar Shoes
From : George
Date : 15.06.05 11:26:00 AM
Which method is your horse trimmed with above?
I think the thing with laminitis is that its so specific to the horse its affecting. I think you just need to see how it goes, i think box rest is better than walking it off if your in any doubt, unless your horse is very depressed then sometimes if you can make them comfortable, ten minutes outside the stable might actually help.
There are so many factors to consider, i didnt know about the grass thing, the paddock is curretly being grazed daily by two welshys - should that be stopped?