So, why should you call an RA?

[Deleted]

Before I start, I want to say that I'm not having a personal dig at anyone, but a couple of recent posts on different threads have questioned the validity of the RAs and of the advice that is often given here to call one out. I'm probably going to end up shooting myself in the foot here, but I'd just like to test out how people here would deal with a scenario and see whether it would or would not have been worth calling an RA.

The following is based on a real situation and is also related to a topic that comes up quite often on the DG: mounting. It's not a problem I have but I'll write it in the first person singular so that you can then reply to me as if it was my problem. What I'd like is for DGers to offer their advice and see if we can solve this without calling an RA. You can also ask me any questions you like.

Here goes:

Hi, I wonder if you could help me. I'm having a problem with mounting my pony. He's really good for everything else but won't stand still to be mounted. He gets really cross and the more I ask him to stand still the worse it gets. I tried asking a friend to hold him for me while I got on but he lashed out at her so she won't do it again. What do you think I should do?

[MirandaSophie]

Hi Liz!

could it be possible that something is pinching your pony as you mount? When was the last time he had his back checked- although he is fine once you're on, there could be something tweaking him just as your mount- it might be an idea to just havet hat checked out just incase- if there IS something sore for him in his back when you mount it will more than likely escalate if left alone... that's not to say there is something wrong- but better safe

I would be temped to just do some ground work- leave him untacked to begin with and see if he'll stand by the block.

Do you mount in different places, or just the one? If it's just the one place, does he react in the same way if youw ere to move the block and mount somewhere else?

Once your pony just stands still at the block- untacked, how does he ract if you rub / scratch his back? Does he tense up? Does he move away? Or does he just stand there?

I'd kepe practising the standing until he has it down to an art.

If he won't stand at the block even untack, can you lead him past it? How is he then? Does he just walk past as if it were nothing, or is there some tension there too ?

Will he stand next to it if you're on the ground too? Can you do this sublty- just walk past it a few times and then, asif it's no big deal, make him stand for a few seconds, then walk on again?

oncve he can do that nicely, will he stand there and let you stroke his back? What happens if you then stand between the block and your pony? does he move away or just stand there?

When you stand on the block, you could try moving him around- so hold the rope and walk him a couple of steps to the right, to the left etc. once he stand side on, give him lots of praise- ignore it every time he spins his back end round and stands face on to you (I'm guessing this is what he does?)

Once your pony will stand side on to the block comfortably, and let you stroke his back, can you apply exactly the same principles with a saddle on?

Once you have this down to a T- just pull the stirrups down- the forst few times I'd expect he swings around a bit- so move him either which way as you did before. once you can pull your stirrups down, pull on the leathers a bit and tap the saddle a bit and he is standing still, try jsut putting your foot in the stirrup- no weight just yet. He may well swing himself aorund again- it's just lots of repetition I'm afraid.

once he will stand patiently with your foot in the stirrup, apply a litlte bit of pressure. And carry on as before.

What happens if you have someone "holding" the stirrup the other side? Lots of patience and time may well be needed.

once you are able to do all of this, try mounting and DO NOT LET HIM MOVE OFF UNTIL YOU HAVE ASKED! if he does, make him stand next to the block again- walk on when you are ready, dismount, adn try again. It's tedious!

This won't happen over night!

I hope this makes sense ! Remember though, I'm not qualified in anyway to tell you what you should or shouldn't do- but the moving the horse around thing has always worked for mine!

[MirandaSophie]

Meant to say- Good luck!

let us know how you go- other people will probs have a better idea than me... if you feel you arne't getting anywhere, or if things are getting worse and you've done all the necessary check, it might be worth finding an RA near you

[Ryan&Dizzy]

erm well my first think i would say is to teach the horse to mount as if it were a baby, just stand next to you then stand with you where you would be to mount. then to stand next to a block, then stand next to u stood on a block, etc keep the steps small and therefore easy to achieve give lots of praise when the horse achieves a goal and dont move onto the next 'step' unless the horse is totally happy. if you ask too much too soon and the horse gets stressed or cant achieve it then simply go back a step or two and take your time.

its not a quick fix but it has worked with two of mine otto justed to bolt as soon as you got your foot in the strirup and Ryan came terrified of mounting blocks and i couldnt even get him in the school with ont... i now stand grooming him off of it!

[Catrin]

Pre-2003. I would have hopped on quick and ridden off! If it were someone else's pony, I would have probably suggested facing it to a gate, wall etc, so its forward movement was blocked. I would have also made sure that it wasn't in the 'last one in the yard' position, possibly with a companion that it was settled with.

It's bizarre to think that's what I would have done as, although I did maths and computing, after doing 'statistics for psycholgists' I studied behavioural psychology and neurology for a year at university. What I never had chance to study until I found IH, was the psychology of the horse and how ground handling makes big changes in its behaviour. I wasn't very intelligent then.

Now thank IH, I can do it so much better.

[rj]

Nothing to add to MS post I don't think but just wanted to say I haven't seen any negative butf they could afford it.
As far as I can see it's false economy not to get someone out, as in the long run you could spend a lot more on gadgets and/or unqualified helpers and suffer months and months of stress making matters worse, when an RA would probably have put you on the right track from the word go.

[rj]

Nothing to add to MS post I don't think but just wanted to say I haven't seen any negative stuff about RA's execpt from some posters who say they would have one out if they could afford it.
As far as I can see it's false economy not to get someone out, as in the long run you could spend a lot more on gadgets and/or unqualified helpers and suffer months and months of stress making matters worse, when an RA would probably have put you on the right track from the word go.

[hch4971]

Again, nothing to add to MS post BUT my opinion regarding RAs and calling them out is from personal experience. I figure if you have a problem with a horse or pony that you cannot deal with yourself then you should get someone in who can. Often the problems are very easily solved by someone who knows what they are doing and advice can be given to the owner on how to continue addressing the problem for a positive outcome. Sooooo......... who do you call, some trainer that works locally but you know nothing about or an RA, someone who has been trained and endorsed by an organisation that promotes non violent training. I chose to call an RA rather than someone who may work the 'old traditional - break em down' way, my choice and the right one I feel. I was unable to deal with the problem I had with my pony ( I was the problem!), people on here could, and would have, given me excellent advice I know, but I would not have had the confidence to follow it through. I was in a potentially dangerous situation and didnt have a clue how to deal with it and I think that is the difference. Sarah D sorted out my pony's problem but, far more importantly in my opinion, gave me the tools to carry on her work with him. I have absolutely no doubt that there will be people who come on this board who could have dealt with his problems in the same way but you can hardly ask total strangers for help like this in case you end up with some random nutter who makes things worse. So I think probably safety, ability and honestly knowing your own capabilities is, or should be, taken into account when making a decision of whether or not to call in an RA.

[MirandaSophie]

I agree with hch4971 - RAs do this because it's their job- like anything, my customers could quite easily get their own blasted chicken and chips, but it's my job to... also you usually speak to the RA with a little bit of background etc, so they can cautiously advise of other ideas on the phone, i suppose ?

[Deleted]

Thanks for the replies! Rather than a discussion on the RAs, I'd just be interested to see if we can actually get to the bottom of this without calling the RA first, like an on-line case study. So here's the "client" answers to your suggestions.

Wow, what great ideas. Thanks. Let me go through them.

We had Fudge (my pony) vetted when we bought him and the vet didn't say anything about his back. Do you think I should get someone else too? If so, what sort of person would you suggest?

Groundwork sounds interesting but I'm not sure where to begin. I have an instructor but she only teaches riding. What sort of groundwork would you suggest and how do I go about learning?

We only have one mounting block here and it is concrete so I can't move it. I've not tried getting on him anywhere else as I was always told it's best to use the mounting block. Do you think I should try getting on him from the ground somewhere? I'm worried that he might be worse, though, and I'd already have my foot in a stirrup and if he gets cross then I'd have an accident. What do you think?

No, he won't lead up to the block at all now and it's getting worse. To start off with he would just get cross when I tried to mount but now he gets cross when you start to walk towards it and to be honest he's starting to scare me. I haven't tried leading him near it without his tack. I'll try that, maybe. But that means I'm not sure I can do all the other things you suggest either, MirandaSophie. They sound like great ideas, though, so I'll see what I can do.

Thanks ryan&dizzy too. He will stand next to me really still when I'm grooming him and stuff so I don't think he's upset with me, just with the mounting. Like I said just now, I'll see if I can lead him to the mounting block and groom him there.

I'll let you know what happens but has anyone got any other ideas?

[geeup]

you don't need other ideas you need to watch and observe each idea one at a time.

[MirandaSophie]

OK, well, I think ti's important that you can lead your pony past the block- just walk straight past it a couple of times- even from a fair distance. Maybe lead him in a bridle if you're a bit worried- but try to keep things completely relaxed. What about trotting him past it? he mightn't even think anything of it if you trot past, but it is important that you can take your pony where you want to so that, should the need arise, you can trust your ability to take him somewhere.

The idea of taking him up to the mounting block naked (not you, the pony!!), was just an experiment to see if he's anticipating the mounting- do you ride him bareback at all? Maybe take him there and groom him if he likes being groomed While he is untacked, just try to get him to stand nicely- no mounting or anything, you're trying to make the mounting block a nice place to be- if he can associate it with things he likes then his attitude might change somewhat.

It would be interesting to see if you can mount him from somewhere else- is there anywhere safe you can try ?

Definately try to lead him past- you want him to be relaxed and happy, but don't try to do everything at once...like I said, these things don't happen over night unforunately!

What about feeding him near it ?

[Susan]

Ref the Mounting..
I was one of those who discovered to my cost how dangerous it is to not have a horse stand still 100% whilst getting on board.

Monty actually tells us this at his demo's, last time I felt as if he was speaking to me!

I came off Flynn before I actually got on him because he moved away from me and the gap got wider and eventually I had nothing, all I could do except land flat on my back.. and I really did hurt myself.

Now Flynn was taught to stand still in the beginning of his education, but like everything if you allow things to slip and slip, one day it does bite you back. Flynn simply was doing what he had been doing as I went to get on he moved away..he even perhaps thought it was what was required as I didnt check him or stop this behaviour.

I am lucky as June learned a lot from Julia and came over to help me, as well as I had a mounting lessons on her wooden horse Timba, to rebuild my confidence.
Flynn was simply asked to stand still and if he did move he was put back, and I would not get off mounting block to do this either. I used my tongue click as well. Simply and quick answer to say yes lad that is what I wanted. Then as Monty suggests he was then asked to back a couple of strides not go forwards.
I now feel 100% about mounting which I had not felt for a very long time.

So he is led to mounting block and has to be square to where I want him. Before I get on I pat the saddle and do a tug of the stirrup irons so he is aware of what is going to happen and I watch him for any show of movement. If he does move as I said, he has to come back. I do not settle for less then I want.

ref getting RA's out.. I struggled with loading training with Flynn when I bought my new trailer. Then I had one leading/loading lesson with Julia our RA and I was fixed! to then work with Flynn the result was amazing. I also know if ever he isnt 100% I have great foundations to go back to and work on and load from there..



I see it as the person trained to see and advise rather then paddling around in the dark.

[amarche]

Personally I'd look at adding a bit of clicker training into what MS has described above so that it focuses both owner/rider and pony on the positive - there's quite a good resource of how to introduce CT on the internet so it would just be a few google searches to get started.
And the beauty of CT is that it focuses you on breaking the 'problem' down into little stages too so that you although the original problem is mounting - the actual problem is that he's not willing to follow the owner up to the mounting block, so it could well be boiling down to a trust issue. Again I'm a great believer that most trust issues are due to pain - i'd be doubble checking everything !

Of course I'd personally like to see the horse/rider and try to assess the situation but that's not exactly the point here is it? lol!

good luck though

[june]

Their could be any number of reasons why this pony is doing this. Pain springs to mind as the first thing to eliminate. Could be back or saddle related or simply the rider digging the horse in the ribs with their toe when mounting. It could possibly be solved with lots of ideas from a forum but I'd bet quite a lot that if the person got an RA out they'd know what the problem was from the first visit and would be well on their way to solving it without huge expense. The pony is clearly saying it has an issue which could quickly turn into something quite dangerous.

In my experience it is much easier to be shown something than to read it from a book/forum and try to put it into practice. Unemotional eyes on the ground make a big difference. I use an RA quite a lot, not because I have any major issues with my horses, but because it is easier to work with two people and I know the RA's timing is spot on so we make progress very quickly.

I'm in the process of backing a 7 year old section D who hasn't much experience of life so is quite reactive. It is much easier desensitising her to the saddle etc with two people and I can rely on the RA to know when to take the pressure off and when to keep it on whereas working with someone else with less good timing it could go wrong quite easily.