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Post by Steve Reid on Jun 20, 2014 20:55:04 GMT 1
Horse and Hound forum is free and has a lot of traffic. Yes this is true but some of the advice given on there doesn't really fit well with IH principles IMHO There are certainly a few on that forum who could do with a thorough education on the principles of good horsemanship, but I always thought that if one wanted to sell beer one should go where there are beer drinkers.
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Post by taklishim on Jun 20, 2014 21:33:24 GMT 1
I don't want to sound rude, but if I explain what's happening to someone who isnt am IHDGer what is happening, it truly sounds bonkers. A forum where people used to ask questions, share experience and help each other is being locked up so that only one approved person can answer questions or comment on behaviour or training. "this" so much experience lost
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Post by humility on Jun 20, 2014 23:01:03 GMT 1
I also don't mean to be rude but feel that a closed, members only forum smacks of a 'my way or the highway' attitude and we have all seen other forums close for the same reasons.
The most interesting discussions have often been started by people who are determinedly NOT IH and then the process begins to show them how their thinking needs to change and the difference it will make to their horse and to their horsemanship. All that will be lost. These people that wandered onto the board for whatever reason will no longer be able to, they will carry on as they always have done and nothing will change for their horses.
I am sure there have been and will be interesting discussions on the members board but they surely lose their edge when everyone is singing from the same song sheet and no one is there to play devils advocate.
So much potential for good is being lost by asking people to pay 'up-front' The greatest teachers this world has known all gave their knowledge for free...
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Post by marychick on Jun 21, 2014 0:16:39 GMT 1
I obviously don't speak for the mods or IH but sounds to me like this is more about them needing to be careful that IH are not being held responsible for some of the bad advice given by some people on forums. It's nothing to do with membership it's more that the members board is easier to regulate in this way. I like the fact that there are no anti IH people on there too. I don't actually enjoy arguing! But that doesn't mean we don't have differing opinions on things and that there aren't thoughtful discussions on training.
I think the broad accusations towards IH that are being made about them dictating that it's the IH way or nothing or accusing them of trying to just get money out of people are completely ridiculous!!!! First of all they charge FAR less for membership than most organisations and work very hard to keep their prices down and ensure people are getting value for money!! And secondally they, above any organisation i have ever come across, are far more open to a wide range of training techniques and different ideas. They are always listening to people about what works for the horse (or rider) and praising other trainers or techniques. You are never going to please everyone but I'm really disappointed at some of the statements being made here!
Unfortunately as a result of the society we live in people often don't have common sense and they may go home and try something written on this forum and either through misunderstanding or just plain bad advice it could go very wrong and as Intelligent horsemanship's name is at the top of the board they will be held responsible! This has nothing to do with trying to oppress speech or force money out of people!! I think we need be a bit more realistic!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 7:55:50 GMT 1
Well said, Mary, thank you. I don't want to sound rude, but if I explain what's happening to someone who isnt am IHDGer what is happening, it truly sounds bonkers. A forum where people used to ask questions, share experience and help each other is being locked up so that only one approved person can answer questions or comment on behaviour or training. The forum ran very well and brought people into IH and other ways of thinking for many years, long before Liz became more active on the forum. As a web and programming professional, this will be an interesting experiment to watch. I am pretty certain it will fail, but I shall watch with interest. As a member of what was generally a nice community, I will be sorry to see it die off and sorry to lose touch with some nice and knowledgeable people. I'm not going to comment on most of the posts on here, Admin, Mary and others have, I think, covered most points. I would, though, like to reply to Caroline's interesting post. If you explain as breifly as that to your friends, they might well find the idea bonkers. If, though, you first of all explained to your friend that a professional training association, with a clear and fair ethos and also with some specific training techniques, had an open forum where anyone at all was allowed to give advice, even though in some cases that advice was contrary to its own principles, and even in some cases be critical of the hosting association, not only might they understand the need for a change, they might even be surprised that the association (and in particular its owner) was so generous and tolerant in the first place. You say this forum ran very well long before I became active - did you know that we both joined this version of the DG on the same day? And yes, I was on the old format one. There have been some dreadful problems that the moderators have had to deal with over the years. If you haven't picked them up it shows what a good job they've done. I could write pages about some of the advice that's been given over the years but will pick out just a few. Do you remember Janet George advising someone with a difficult colt to carry a length of hose to hit it with? And advising (possibly the same person) to hit a foal with a bucket (a nice soft one of course) to get it to respect feed time? There has been a lot of advice on how to do join up by people who haven't even attended a course, countless examples of people advising others to use whips, all sorts of misinterpretations of horse behaviour and I'm not sure what else. And we won't even get started on discussions on the evils of the Dually compared to a rope halter. It's a very long list. In the past, there were other RAs - Zoe, Sarah - who would join these discussions to give the IH perspective. For their own reasons they no longer post here. Zoe in particular was, though, very active in making sure that anything really daft or wrong was countered. This forum has never been unmoderated or unmonitored. The point about having an RA only giving advice(and it might not be only me if I can persuade some others to dip in from time to time) is that we have been trained and approved by IH and Kelly. We have experience of many, many horses and can give advice based years of study and experience with problem horses. Many of those who offer advice at the moment know what worked for their horse, or maybe a few others, but don't have the experience of assessing a situation very quickly and knowing (usually!) how to start addressing it. That's what we've all trained to do. I don't see this change as an experiment, and I would be very, very surprised if it reverts to what it was.
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Post by amandap on Jun 21, 2014 8:15:21 GMT 1
Tbh I think part of the reason peeps are disgruntled is that the forum has been so open and tolerant for many years. Forums such as HHO are not run by a training organization so have no ethos to project to readers to give readers an idea of what it's all about. UKNHCP closed their forum completely for exactly the reasons LizP describes, it didn't always reflect their ethos.
I don't believe a significant proportion or certainly not the majority of people come to IH because of this forum and I expect many have been put off or misunderstand what IH is about tbh!
I am sad it has come to this but I do understand why this decision has bee made.
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Post by bethspring on Jun 21, 2014 14:49:49 GMT 1
I might've missed this, but what will happen to the perfect confidence board??
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Post by mrsfields on Jun 21, 2014 16:26:57 GMT 1
I'm not trying to push a different forum here, Phoenix and the DG fill very different niches, but it's that kind of sharing of experiences which I think is in danger of being lost from IH. I believe that shared experiences have a strong contribution to make in expanding our collective knowledge and awareness of horsemanship and horse management/health issues, it's one of the huge advantages of the internet and it would be a pity if IH contracts to essentially a members-only community. totally agree! it was simply thru a random post here in the open DG (by bertie, on the importance of salt in the diet) that helped me finally find a cure for my horse's chronic headshaking... i dread to think what state we would have been in today without the DG... it was a totally random thread, but it changed my horse's life! i think restrictions would be very detrimental and would discourage people from posting and sharing - i just can't get my head around it...
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Post by Admin on Jun 21, 2014 20:47:45 GMT 1
I might've missed this, but what will happen to the perfect confidence board?? as of 28th July, the boards will be Members - this won't change format NH Chat - also unchanged General Horse Chatter, which will be the new version of the previous general horse talk Ask an Expert IH Charity Forum support All other boards will be removed or locked, depending on if there is info in that that people might want to search. There will probably be fewer people posting and sharing. It's unfortunate, but our priority is to make sure that we can keep the whole board within the framework of IH with the resources we have. In other words, we're doing what we can with what we've got!
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Post by lisap on Jun 21, 2014 21:27:04 GMT 1
This is the only forum I post on, and it is 'family' to me. The people I have met on here both in RL and in cyberspace have been wonderful. It has sustained me over many years, and I have learned so much from the people on here. I'd like to think that my approach is emotionally intelligent when it comes to dealing with both horses and people, and am passionate about finding non-violent methods to work with horses and riders alike. I've changed my views a lot regarding the pros and cons of barefoot trimming versus shoeing, treeless versus treed saddles and most recently, the benefits and skills regarding longlining. Strangely, the discussions from the 'ordinary' riders who have worked out solutions to various horsey issues have been most useful to me over the years.
Why do I keep coming back here? Because people do have a range of experiences and views. Occasionally people will express a view that makes others uncomfortable, and the discussions have sometimes become heated. However, shining through all these discussions is that thread of "There is a better way to solve this problem rather than being violent". To me, this lends the board strength and indeed, intelligence. OK, there have been troublemakers over the years, just like in RL there are people who its better not to be around, but the nice thing about cyberspace is that you can just choose to ignore them!
Sometimes it's nice to challenge any belief, whether it be the use of spurs, whips, longlines, lungeing, barefoot, bitless, bits and now and then I have deliberately posited a thread just to stimulate discussion and thinking, but the length of these threads would imply that lots of other people like a good discussion about ideas and methods too!
What a shame then to go down a route that seems to want to "Toe the party line". We've all seen what that has done to politics, with only carefully judged, media trained people allowed to express the opinions of the party. The result has been that we are turning our backs on them. One of the many, many virtues of this board has been its willingness to be inclusive, address thorny topics and live dangerously on occasion! If only a small group of 'vetted' people are going to be allowed to be 'experts' then we are going to lose so much. People like Janwilky who has made an incredible journey with her horses and her riding. Her experiences with Lucas and Bambi must resonate so strongly with many people here and her advice comes from carefully worked through practical experience. Mel with first Hamish and now Jos, another great example of an 'ordinary' rider who has shared her experiences and is now, in my opinion just as qualified to talk about regaining confidence as any RA. Rosemaryhannah, whose advice is always sensible, well thought through, calming and mature. Jill in Shropshire, who has forgotten more about handling horses than many people will ever know and is a reservoir of great, non-violent solutions to tricky problems. These are just 4 non 'experts', there are many, many more here, who have all, at one time or another given people like me something new to chew on and challenged and developed my own approaches.
I am also disappointed that so few RA's frequent the DG regularly. As an equine professional, the DG helps me keep my finger well on the pulse of what the recreational rider is finding useful and interesting. I freely admit that the discussions on the DG have helped me to come up with courses and activities at my base in Cheshire designed with the needs of the 'typical' (if there is such a thing!)DG reader. Perhaps the RA's are missing a major opportunity to develop their own services by not getting involved with the DG?
The Horsey Coffee Mornings were created by Kathy Nadin and I years back and the idea has been taken up by Gary in Lincolnshire, and I know someone else in Hampshire is trying to get them off the ground. The coffee mornings have been so successful (they are still going on the Wirral, and I now run a Wednesday 'coffee evening' local to me which has over 130 members). The topics we get people to give talks on are all those which have appeared on the DG over the years, and we have always been incredibly keen to bring a wide variety of 'professionals' in to talk about what they do. Very occasionally I have found myself shifting uncomfortably in my seat when an opinion is expressed that I don't personally agree with, but actually, the audience are not stupid three year olds, and they have always taken what they need from the presentations and not been afraid to speak up with their own view. In many ways the coffee mornings/evenings are a RL version of the DG.
It's a shame, but as Jennyb says, in the end the IHDG is Kelly's toy and she must do what she feels is best.
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Post by clara81 on Jun 21, 2014 22:03:29 GMT 1
Aw this is really sad. I joined IH because the DG was so friendly and helpful and I wanted to be part of this big "family". I rarely post in the members section because not many people seem to read it and you get more discussion on the general board (although I admit I haven't been on for a while). I wouldn't ask for advice on any other horse forum as I wouldn't trust the members (of the forum) like I do on here. You can't ask for advice on FB, it's bonkers lol!
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Post by janwilky on Jun 22, 2014 9:04:05 GMT 1
Lisa you made me cry! At the end of the day it is the horses who are our greatest teachers. I think one of the things that unites us on here is a willingness to learn from our equine partners, to find better ways of working with them that are true to ourselves and our horses. Some of us use Duallies and some of use use rope halters, some of us lunge and others long-line or do both, we may ride bitted or bitless but we are all looking for non-violent, intelligent ways to work with our horses with integrity. I do understand and respect the IH stance on this, but I suppose what I've liked about the DG is exactly the reason it's being changed: it was the ability to discuss and openly consider wider views beyond those specific to the organisation, to evaluate them in the light of our principles and incorporate them when they offer a better way to what we know already - or reject them when they don't. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading Lisa's sometimes deliberately provocative threads (they always make me chuckle!) which have led to some great discussions, such as the recent one on long-lining. Often the most interesting and helpful posts on these threads (for me) have been from other 'amateur' riders, precisely because I can identify with their journey and what they've learned. Personally, I've learned a huge amount from Kelly's books and the DG and I have a lot of respect for IH but I don't see myself as an 'IH person' particularly, but I've enjoyed feeling part of the wider IH community even though I'm not a member. Having worked through issues with a very tricky horse I've found myself trying all sorts of methods, all of them 'ethical' in my view and sometimes groping about in the dark but eventually adopting what works best for myself and my horse. I use a mix of IH, natural horsemanship (in the broadest sense) and Classical methods and my teachers and mentors come from those backgrounds. I don't really care whose idea it was if it works and helps me get along better with my horses. I use a rope halter, Lucas hated the Dually and I couldn't hold him in it when I was really struggling with him, but I gave it to a lady off the Phoenix forum who has transformed her young bargy horse with it to the extent that she no longer needs it. That's fantastic, I'll look for someone else who needs it now
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Post by portiabuzz on Jun 22, 2014 13:08:20 GMT 1
We all love the DG clearly its nice to see Sent from my GT-I8160
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Post by Mellymoo on Jun 22, 2014 13:13:32 GMT 1
Lisa, what a lovely thing to say, will admit to a couple of tears too! I wish I was a riding instructor, simply because I am becoming a good confidence coach This forum got me out a hole with horses, and has allowed me to make so many friends and learn so much. When I first started with horses, there was no one nearby who was IH who I could speak to, so this forum became my friend and teacher, and indeed my saviour that now allows me to enjoy horses and riding. I have had a horse to an RA for restarting, and although I have not attended the courses (need to save up!) I do feel that the experience I have gained from others and in dealing with my own horses is of benefit to others. It already has been to a few of my horsey friends in RL, and I do not claim to know everything but I can share my experiences and see if it is something others could use. In this online world we live in, people go online first for information and help, and to lose the ability to assist in some way would be sad. Surely most of us regular/long term members are 'Intelligent' enough to regulate what is said and to give out our own experiences in such a way as to help others? I have always, and will always, qualify any advice as being what has worked for me, not what I think someone should do. They are surely able to make their own minds up.
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Post by portiabuzz on Jun 22, 2014 13:25:48 GMT 1
I think people who post bad advice are easily weeded out by us DG ers and it rarely happens.. However discussion from lots of different backgrounds is what's great on here...
Sent from my GT-I8160
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