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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2012 8:19:22 GMT 1
I agree that licenses should be reintroduced. I also think it's time to get tough with everyone who's breeding. It really isn't just farmers and gypsies. I know so many inexperienced people who are running a stallion because they think it's an easy way to make a few hundred quid or just something nice to do. They're usually deluded about the quality of the colt they purchased.
They're breeding from poor quality stallions and to poor quality mares producing absolute rubbish that they want to sell for hundreds if not thousands and being surprised when there's no takers.
Licence the stallions, licence the breeders, make it illegal to breed from anything that's not graded and registered. Passports only to be issued to stock from two graded parents. Make it compulsory for anyone running a stallion to attend a course on stallion handling and keeping, in particular their responsibility as far as ensuring that the stallion is kept safely from any surrounding mares. I have stallions on either side of me and am constantly trying to move my mares to parts of my field that don't have a stallion on the other side of the fence. Why should that be my responsibity?
Reading this back I'm thinking 'do we really need to be this tough?'. On reflection. Yes, I think we do. Far too many people think breeding horses is an easy, cheap way to make a quick buck. Or that they're adding something important to the gene pool with their substandard stallions and mares. Or they think owning a stallion automatically makes them a horse person and earns them respect from the rest of the horsey community. Well, yes, they might get respect from gullible novices, but that's about it. I used to think owning a stallion was a speciality area of horsemanship, but now I look at the stallion owners around me and think , you know what, any idiot can own a stallion and big up it's, usually non-existent, qualities. It doesn't make them good horse people, nor is it a substitute for experience.
The whole area of breeding needs to be made more expensive for all parties. They'll only stop when it hits them in the pocket. Finding a way to do that is the challenge.
As for selling foals at 20p, frankly I think there should be a minimum price for each foal sold at auction. For instance, a £20 foal tax. Only when it goes over £20 can it be sold on.
If sold, the first £20 goes not to the owner/breeder but to an organisation.
If the foal is not sold, the seller to pay the £20 tax and can either take the foal home or leave it at the market.
The £20 tax paid that goes to the organisation funds that organisation to humanely euthanase any unsold foals not taken home.
This would mean that low quality worthless foals are not routinely dragged from sale to sale.
And the cost involved of selling worthless animals would make it even more uneconomical to produce them.
The £20 is just a suggestion, it could be 5 or 50, whatever it costs to stop the over production of rubbish.
And for the small time hobby breeder perhaps their licence could allow them to breed one foal per year, after that they have to buy a breeding stamp to produce more. This would mean they'd have to think long and hard about the cost/trouble of keeping a stallion for the return of one foal per year. And the breeding database would have to flag up for instance if a breeder is registering 3 foals when they haven't purchased the right to do so. So, they can register one but the other two they have to pay for and they're put on a sub-register because the breeder disobeyed the rules.
You can probably tell how strongly I feel about this!
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Post by jill on Dec 23, 2012 8:25:40 GMT 1
Though provoking stuff soldier - I agree totally that we cannot continue to allow market forces to rule when it comes to breeding any kind of animals, thay live too long and can't be thrown away at will. I suspect, as ever though the problem will be financing and enforcing such a scheme, and what will happen to stallions and colts that get caught in the crossfire if such a scheme were to be brought in.
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Post by clipclop on Dec 23, 2012 8:56:40 GMT 1
The thing is, passporting and microchipping laws have been brought in in recent years. There are still many horses being sold without passports so it's unrealistic to think that licencing would work.
Yes it would mean unregistered stock couldn't go through a sale but what's to stop them being sold 'under the radar' or even just dumped?
It's impossible to regulate every horse in the country - if it was possible, all stolen horses would be easily recovered etc. As it is, freezemarked stolen horses are often never found as the vast majority of horses never see a public auction so remain hidden away.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2012 9:47:09 GMT 1
I understand what you're saying ClipClop but don't entirely agree.
Passports were not brought in for ownership reasons or to find stolen horses. But perhaps things could be changed so that that's what they are used for? At the moment holding a passport is not proof of ownership. When they were first introduced there was no imperative to have your horse microchipped.
Regarding horses, and in particular, weanlings sold at market. I think a foal tax would deter a lot of the farmer breeders. Many in Wales, the place I'm most familar with, see the auctions as the place to take all their foals every year. If it cost them more to sell them they'd be encouraged to a) stop breeding rubbish that doesn't command a good price and b) stop breeding so many.
As for horses being dumped, how many years will anyone pay to breed stock that they are then compelled to dump because they can't sell them legally?
Of course it's impossible to regulate every single stallion. But if it was the law that you had to, anyone could report you for owning an unlicensed stallion.
I just don't think it's enough to say "there's nothing we can do". I think the horse community in general should be encouraged to think before they breed, whether they own the stallion or the mare. And people who want to buy should be encouraged to think about what they're buying and who from. Perhaps only passported and registered horses should be allowed to compete, thereby forcing anyone, including happy hackers who only want to do the occasional fun ride or w/t dressage test, to buy a passported horse. Perhaps the cost of passporting a horse over the age of 2 years should be £500 thereby dissuading anyone from buying an unpassported horse. Of course, if they don't want to compete they can remain unpassported. One way or another the market has to be taken away from irresponsible breeders. I think it needs a multifactorial approach.
As I said, thinking there's nothing we can do is not helpful. Any change we can make for the better is exactly that. No system will be perfect. But someone must have a good idea that would work a lot of the time!
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Post by specialized on Dec 23, 2012 10:07:51 GMT 1
Regarding horses, and in particular, weanlings sold at market. I think a foal tax would deter a lot of the farmer breeders. Many in Wales, the place I'm most familar with, see the auctions as the place to take all their foals every year. If it cost them more to sell them they'd be encouraged to a) stop breeding rubbish that doesn't command a good price and b) stop breeding so many. As for horses being dumped, how many years will anyone pay to breed stock that they are then compelled to dump because they can't sell them legally? Whilst I find it hard to disagree with anything you say soldier1, the practicalities will always result in schemes such as you have suggested failing due to lack of resources. There would have to be a political reason for government to allocate the resources required to set up such a scheme and that is unlikely to be the case. On the specific points above there are no costs involved with running horses on the common land/mountains of Wales, which is why they carry on breeding and even a couple of pounds per foal is profit. If there was a system of high charges introduced for selling they would just leave them on the mountains to get on with it, creating a massive welfare issue in the future. The horses being dumped are from people who have run out of money to look after them and just get rid of them however they can, as a result of the economic climate this is only going to get worse - these are the people that would probably have paid £20 for them on a whim so a 'market tax' would change little. I do agree that the private breeders of the 'odd foal' probably contribute to the oversupply of foals, but the big breeders are often the ones guilty of uncontrolled breeding as they are constantly striving to produce the 'perfect one' and reject hundreds into the open market - but these are breeders that are considered responsible and already adhere to any existing regulation.
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Post by holi on Dec 23, 2012 11:41:37 GMT 1
20p that is just awful and so upsetting
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Post by bramblesmum on Dec 23, 2012 12:31:37 GMT 1
I breed a few foals a year and have not had any issue selling mine and not for 20p the people that are causing the flood of horses are not people like me and are not the responsible breeders (two locally breed sportshorses are not breeding for the next year and possibly longer) its gypsys and farmers that cause the problem as they breed more than they can keep and chuck them in sales with no reserves and passports
as for licensing its a minefield, how do you ascertain who would be able to work out if the stallion is eligible for licensing, christ the government would put a non horsey pen pusher in charge who wouldnt know one end of a horse from the other. My stallion will be up for grading and licensing with TGCA in the next two years (because of the riding element am needing to work him first as he was unbroken when I got him) he is unregistered at the moment but two TGCA judges have said they would pass him without question. Now if you order a license now or you cant have them/breed from them that would put my lad at a real loss as his education is not yet ready for that.
I think if licensing goes ahead it will be another failure for horses and owners and a nice tax for the government. Its already stupidly expensive to grade imagine what it would be if the government got involved and also you know they would make it a monthly or yearly payment that you would have to pay to keep your horse on the register.
I like the idea of the minimum price at the sales, I havent been for a long time but at beeston it cost to enter the pony so why not up that to a decent amount say £50 - £100 and then the owner will have to be happy it will reach that in order to enter them
Im very lucky, although what many of you would call a backyard breeder I dont breed what I wouldnt be able to keep. I am very lucky and happy that my foals have gone to brilliant homes and I am still in touch, I also bought back my colt this winter when his mum got pregnant and had to give him up. So I know I do the best by my animals.
The long and short of it is stallions are needed to keep gene pools open, maybe not be used but they are necessary otherwise youll extinct certain horse breeds. I would also not accept any one person telling me on a course how to handle my stallion as most "experienced stallion handlers" believe blue piping and a chifney are the way to go and I know this as fact from the number of people that I have met over the years who try to tell me to deal with mine in this way.
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Post by clipclop on Dec 23, 2012 12:42:28 GMT 1
I understand what you're saying ClipClop but don't entirely agree. Passports were not brought in for ownership reasons or to find stolen horses. But perhaps things could be changed so that that's what they are used for? At the moment holding a passport is not proof of ownership. When they were first introduced there was no imperative to have your horse microchipped. Regarding horses, and in particular, weanlings sold at market. I think a foal tax would deter a lot of the farmer breeders. Many in Wales, the place I'm most familar with, see the auctions as the place to take all their foals every year. If it cost them more to sell them they'd be encouraged to a) stop breeding rubbish that doesn't command a good price and b) stop breeding so many. As for horses being dumped, how many years will anyone pay to breed stock that they are then compelled to dump because they can't sell them legally? Of course it's impossible to regulate every single stallion. But if it was the law that you had to, anyone could report you for owning an unlicensed stallion. I just don't think it's enough to say "there's nothing we can do". I think the horse community in general should be encouraged to think before they breed, whether they own the stallion or the mare. And people who want to buy should be encouraged to think about what they're buying and who from. Perhaps only passported and registered horses should be allowed to compete, thereby forcing anyone, including happy hackers who only want to do the occasional fun ride or w/t dressage test, to buy a passported horse. Perhaps the cost of passporting a horse over the age of 2 years should be �500 thereby dissuading anyone from buying an unpassported horse. Of course, if they don't want to compete they can remain unpassported. One way or another the market has to be taken away from irresponsible breeders. I think it needs a multifactorial approach. As I said, thinking there's nothing we can do is not helpful. Any change we can make for the better is exactly that. No system will be perfect. But someone must have a good idea that would work a lot of the time! What I'm getting at is that if there's been no enforcement of passports, there would realistically be on enforcement of licencing. It is impossible to know where every horse in this country is, hence my comment about finding freezemarked horses - it's actually VERY easy to hide a horse out of the way so either no-one would know unlicensed horses were there or the people in the know would turn a blind eye, the same as they have done with passporting and microchipping. Passports were brought in to appease the eu. If they'd been introduced with any real intelligence, they could have really helped prevent theft - for example, even a chipped or freezemarked horse can easily be re-passported despite the fact that those details should enable an original passport to be sourced. The government have just stopped funding the NED which is a massive negative step so I'm am understandably very dubious about licencing being remotely feasible. As for a foal tax, once again, only enforcable at auctions. You have to remember, it doesn't cost the type of people these things would be aimed at anything to bring these foals into the world - they own the stallions and the mares so no covering costs and they live out so no feed or hay. Most of these ponies won't be vaccinated, passported, microchipped or even probably ever see a farrier. If the foals are sold young enough then they don't have to be passported or chipped. In this sense, it would actually cost more for these people to geld their stallions or keep them in away from the mares. The reality is, those who already abide by the law and breed conscientiously would have to pay more. Those who already use loopholes to be above the law would continue to do so. I'd rather see a scheme (such as cats protection league do to encourage neutering of cats) where someone in financial hardship for example could get help towards the cost of gelding. Sent from my ST18i using proboards
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Post by specialized on Dec 23, 2012 13:01:17 GMT 1
I'd rather see a scheme (such as cats protection league do to encourage neutering of cats) where someone in financial hardship for example could get help towards the cost of gelding. Sent from my ST18i using proboards[/quote] They are currently doing free neutering of farm dogs in Wales, so why not?
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Post by specialized on Dec 23, 2012 13:05:02 GMT 1
I breed a few foals a year and have not had any issue selling mine and not for 20p the people that are causing the flood of horses are not people like me and are not the responsible breeders (two locally breed sportshorses are not breeding for the next year and possibly longer) its gypsys and farmers that cause the problem as they breed more than they can keep and chuck them in sales with no reserves and passports But what about the TB studs and Welsh cob studs that flood the market with rejects? You are right it is not the small responsible breeders, it is the large-scale irresponsible breeders that feed the market as well as the farmers and gypsies.
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Post by bramblesmum on Dec 23, 2012 14:50:34 GMT 1
specialised yes there are far too many of both those breeds sadly the welsh more so and that is generally the farmers with too much pasture that just have them running out for no cost covering all the time. I just cant see a real improvement to things as with any licensing those people will be ones to avoid the charges whereas someone like myself would pay and for no real reason or benefit
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Post by Catrin on Dec 23, 2012 14:59:43 GMT 1
We need that Stallion Registration back, it might have saved MAFF a load of money, that was the only reason that the 1958 Horse Breeding Act was amended, but it's been paid for over and over by starved and neglected horses. House of Commns Debate 30 March 1982 Hansard vol 21 c106W 106W Mr Harry Greenway asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he has any intention of seeking to repeal the Horse Breeding Act 1958; and if he will make a statement.
Mrs Peggy Fenner said, "It has been argued that the Act has outlived its usefulness and should be repealed. However, as my right hon. Friend pointed out in his reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin (Mr. Hicks) on 10 December—[Vol. 14, c. 494–95]—we have instituted consultations with representative horse organisations and veterinary bodies about alternative stallion licensing arrangements under the Act which would be more in keeping with the needs of the horse breeding industry today and would streamline the administration, so making financial savings." Unfortunately the only reservations were about maintaining the standard of breeding stock and the responsibility was thus passed on to the breed societies. No–one, at that time, foresaw that the repeal of the stallion registration scheme would create a golden opportunity for those who had no concern about the quality of the horse, to make a fast buck from over–breeding.
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Post by kafee on Dec 24, 2012 22:27:34 GMT 1
The prices at Reading for shetlands varies widely. Some ponies (usually colts or entires) may fail to make a bid at all, but the highest priced shetland at the recent sales was around £2500! I suspect the average (due to those with no bid or low prices) is probably around £200, but in reality, I'd say there were more selling for around £400 - 500. As always, people get back the effort they put in! Well bred ponies, well presented, and with everything going for them (not babies, backed, vacc, chipped, etc) tend to make better money. But people do have to make the effort, and sadly some breeders just don't bother, and there are ponies there with average breeding, conformation & turnout, and they make poor money. Equallly no one wants colts these days. So people would do better to geld & sell privately than put a colt through the ring. A couple of years running we bought a couple of colts - amazingly bred, county standard colts, who ever won or placed in the pre-sale show, yet were selling for silly money - because they are entire. At non breed specific auctions, the shetlands tend to be unregistered, less carefully bred, and make less money. I gather the prices at Beauleiu Road on the 29th November were low throughout the sale, I know I paid very little for the two lovely foals that I bought. Any idea what the average price would have been for the foals, I'm afraid I was too busy concentrating on not buying more than two, which was difficult. I keep thinking about no.10, a chestnut colt to make 13.2hh that sold for 10gns......................
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varkie
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Post by varkie on Dec 24, 2012 23:18:41 GMT 1
This is the report on the Beaulieu sale: www.salisburyauctioncentre.co.uk/uploads/7/8/2/9/7829616/report_291112.pdfNormally cobs & shetlands make much better money, but even they were low. I also noticed that Reading have stopped doing their once a month general horse sale - not enough actually selling, I should think. Sad sign of the times, with no easy answer at all.
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Post by specialized on Dec 25, 2012 10:02:45 GMT 1
My neighbour buys most of his Shetland breeding stock as filly foals direct from the annual sale on Shetland. Last year he was the only bidder and nobody bid on the colt foals, this year there were a couple of bidders and there were breeding mares being sold which is very rare, and he is wondering how long the sale will continue.
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