Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2012 11:57:34 GMT 1
My point is that it is possible to achieve peaceful ends by peaceful means. I think he can draw an ethical line more close to the ideal and use his position and reputation to validate it. He doesn't need to compromise. If Monty Roberts says "I would love to work with your horse, but could you remove those stacks first please?" - I think most people would agree. And I know his followers would love him even more for it. I disagree completely with this for two reasons. 1 - you remove the stacks and the horse won't go sound for a good few weeks, so you won't be doing it any favours in the short term. 2 - I think there's a greater chance of hell freezing over then the TWH community saying "Oh ok then we'll throw aside soring and stacks to see Monty work with our horse". Monty refusing to work with the horse in stacks would have been the end of that demo and probably any future demo's to that community, he'd have been viewed as a bunny hugger and a waste of space who doesn't understand "real horsemanship". I don't think you really understand the mentality of the people Monty is trying to work with. I saw a video Monty had taken of some horse trainers like these that he showed us at Horseworld and it's a different world to the stuff welfare charities here have to deal with. I really do believe that if Monty drew his line where you draw yours he'd never have even got into that barn to present that demo.
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Post by Kelly Marks on May 29, 2012 12:09:07 GMT 1
ANOTHER post from Monty! Dear Kelly:
Thank you for your assistance with this recent episode. It is probable that you will take the position that nothing more needs to be said. With that in mind, I am going to give you some more words because of the efforts that I have made to know more about that day in Tennessee. You can do what you want with the words, including ignoring them. Your supportive comments read to me this morning are appreciated.
Subsequent to the two responses that I sent through, I have one more which I promise to be the final communication that I will bother the group with. First, let me say, that I would fight lions for the right of people to hold and make known their honest opinions. Each DG member brings creditability to the concept of a DG when they are allowed to freely express themselves. Remember, that this works both ways and that I feel a desperate need to defend myself against statements that are clearly opposed to the true facts surrounding the situation. Placing yourselves in my position, remember that I have more than 70 years devoted to this, non-violent, mission I am on.
Recognizing that I am probably far more sensitive than I need to be, I would like each DG member to know that I took the time to track down one of the veterinarians who was present on the day. Not surprisingly, he lives in a different community and wants no connection or reference to his identity. This man was present at my meeting with the owner and staff subsequent to the afternoon that the subject video was made. This equine veterinarian categorically stated that the horse was sound in his opinion. He went on to outline circumstances that I had long since forgotten even existed. I would like to share them with you in this communication.
The veterinarian reminded me that he was at the gate when the trainer brought the horse to me. He realized that I had no idea I was receiving a horse on stacks. He told me that the trainer asked that I explain in further detail the language of Equus. The trainer went on to ask me to school on the Dually® halter and then to create a demonstration showing the training of “standing to mount.” He stated that they had experienced trouble with this horse in this area. The clip clearly shows that I chose not to school to the Dually halter, nor did I undertake any effort to deal with the problem of “standing to mount.” I did explain the language and executed Join-Up.
It is unclear whether I did four or five other horses on the afternoon. Each horse average about 30 minutes in the round pen. The subject horse, however, was in the round pen for eight minutes, but about five and one half active even though it was just a walk. If DG members have seen my demonstrations, they will realize that they have never seen me execute an eight minute demo and then send the horse away. This has never occurred in the 9,000 horses that I have worked with in front of public audiences, apart from this one individual. It is clear that I was uncomfortable with the entire scenario and put a stop to it at the earliest possible opportunity.
Please ask yourselves what outcome might have occurred if I had outwardly criticized the owner for sending me a horse on stacks and purposely deformed feet. I am certain that I would not have achieved several significant improvements that were evidenced after this event, including removing all breeding stallions from the stacks. The environment was challenging enough with the strong recommendations that I made. I believe I made the right decision and I further believe that history will prove that I have become the only effective consultant to improve the world of the Tennessee Walking Horse. I will continue to try.
Thank you very much for hearing me out. I will continue to work hard to earn the trust of concerned horse people worldwide. Challenges tend to make stronger people. I have had my share of challenges throughout my career. I only hope that I can continue to use them to create strength. I can honestly say that the greatest strength that I feel is when I am able to look a given horse in the eye and watch them come to trust me and enjoy being my partner in whatever effort we are making. It has been clearly evident throughout my career that horses are far easier to deal with than people. This only means that people create more strength. I should let the horses do the talking for me.
Monty Roberts
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Post by mandal on May 29, 2012 12:09:09 GMT 1
I can see that argument. But it doesn't mean I don't cry when I see the horse stumbling round the pen, degraded and discomforted. I completely understand your points Caroline. The problem comes when vets (two I believe) state that a horse is sound and it's his way of going. Pip also made a point on my deleted (on my request) thread that we often don't understand the gaits of horses from around the world and may misread them. You cannot just remove the stacks I believe because the horses hooves are 'shaped' as well in my uneducated understanding. If this is true then imo the horse may well be in even more pain. Our perception may be wrong Caroline and unfortunately it is not the same or even remotely similar to the owners, trainers, vets, hoof care professionals who have these Big Lick horses and if a vet declares a horse sound... One group of us is living with an incorrect perception of horses... Perhaps not, perhaps it's all normal, I need education in Big Lick to know. I know nothing anymore.
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Post by wabuska on May 29, 2012 12:13:48 GMT 1
A real, working resut, US wide. Is anyone following the line of this?
Monty.... 'Please ask yourselves what outcome might have occurred if I had outwardly criticized the owner for sending me a horse on stacks and purposely deformed feet. I am certain that I would not have achieved several significant improvements that were evidenced after this event, including removing all breeding stallions from the stacks.
Thank you Monty. I think we've all learned a lot from this incident. All the very best for your ongoing work.
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Post by marychick on May 29, 2012 12:27:15 GMT 1
I'm sure Monty couldn't have done half the good he has done over the years if he hadn't gone in and worked with trainers even when fundamentally disagreed with their methods. His methods have become so widespread because he is willing to show people a better way in a way that they do not percieve to be judgemental. As soon as people get defensive they switch off completely.
I might even go as far as to wonder if many of us would have discovered him if he didn't employ this tactic in his early years. It's no good always preaching to the converted if he wants to help as many horses as possible, and equally it's no good just shouting down peoples ways of life if you want to seek to encouredge a TRUE change of attitude in their horsemanship.
(I'm sure I learnt about a human psychology study which demonstrated this perfectly at uni.... note to self to dig this out)
Thanks again Monty (and your typest!!), for taking the time to talk to us on this.
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on May 29, 2012 12:47:22 GMT 1
I would like to thank Mr Roberts for taking the time to communicate with the DG. I have expressed what I felt I must and so has he. We may have differing views on strategy for the greater good, but I am glad that we seek the same goal.
Ultimately, any horseperson only has two Judges - the eyes of each horse we meet and those of our Maker.
MTA. Since the original thread (in which concerns are raised regarding Monty's work with a TWA horse on stacks) has been locked and not added to the Hall of Fame along with this current thread to which it relates, I reference here the video which has led to both this current thread and the original thread.
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Post by Catrin on May 29, 2012 13:29:20 GMT 1
Monty's message brings home to me one important factor that I often overlook. I am by nature, a very emotive person, as my kids know from watching films in my company on TV, so when I saw the TWH video I felt what the horse felt in terms of discomfort and distress. Yes it made me cry, but then, I, as I have learned to do, put that aside and watched how Monty helped the horse as sensitively as he could, to understand that there were humans he might learn to trust.
I realised, reading Monty's message, that when I say "I can't watch any more of a distressed horse" and walk away, I am actually being self indulgent. It is my feelings that I am acknowledging and pandering to, not what is for the good of the horse.
I have witnessed Monty's feelings of emotion too, as did all the audience with a coloured horse at Myerscough last year. There must be many occasions when Monty has been brought to tears, but he never walks away. Nor does he condemn those who act in ignorance, but he always shows then that there is a better way.
I shall stop my emotive and self-righteous self-indulgence, until I know that I tried my best to help the horse, but like Monty, I hope I never walk away.
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Arabmare
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Post by Arabmare on May 29, 2012 13:44:03 GMT 1
I didn't reply on the other thrad as like what some have said I know nothing about the TWH subject other than they look awful! Montys first post made me well up!! His love for horses shone through so much, i'm so glad there are people like him in this world to make horses and humans live together in a much better way. Must be so hard for him to do what he does with those sort of people, I know that if it was me, i'd be very intimidated by those sorts of humans out there. Well done for trying. Slowly they might see sense, but like you say some will never see what they are doing as wrong One day I will get to go and watch a Monty Demo! Would love to see one Keep up the good work
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Post by lawyerbunny on May 29, 2012 14:00:54 GMT 1
I'm another who is hugely appreciative of Monty and Kelly taking the time to respond on this thread. If it was possible for me to hold them in higher regard than I did, I do!
Both threads have made me appreciate how hard it is for people not only to walk in to the world of people they fundamentally disagree with, risking all the criticism that attracts, but to be able to communicate constructively to achieve change. Brave doesn't cover it.
In their own way, I wonder if that isn't what everyone does who points out a flash is too tight, or helps someone load a horse quietly and not by waving a whip about, etc, etc. Isn't that doing just the same thing? IMHO, that's an incredible achievement each and every time it happens, and maybe, just maybe, the world gets a bit better for the horse every time.
I'm greatly indebted to IH for helping me, I know that.
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Post by Kitty McSpeilberg McGormley on May 29, 2012 14:28:39 GMT 1
haha good old mont strikes again, he types in such a professional way that its hard for my peasent brain to understand, but yes lets make a film about how life would be without Montys input, I bet everyone would still be whipping them and cracking eggs on their heads and I bet those totally weird bungee around the arse things to load horses would be like taking over the woooorld!!!
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Post by jen1 on May 29, 2012 14:34:37 GMT 1
im saddened by people who are essentially sat on there arses as i am now, doing nowt for a cause they find so horrific, That's a big assumption. what that im sat in my arse or other folk are, im not a political person ,and maybe "you do a lot of good" maybe we all do in our own way, i just think there was no need for the other thread to get rude and turn into what looked like a witch hunt, 99% of those people i know dont do anything toward the twh cause, ive asked many times what can i do?
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Post by KimT on May 29, 2012 15:08:28 GMT 1
Why do we (as a species) feel the need to crucify those who are there to help us? I did not read all of the TWH thread. I stopped when it began to feel disrespectful.
Monty- my message to you is to keep on doing what you are doing. I have had people make me feel bad for what I believe in on many occassions and I have never handled it with the grace and respect that you have handled this. I fully agree that people should have freedom of speech but sometimes I think it goes too far and people just start yelling or get spiteful. Thank you for being the better person and replying calmly. I am the sort to believe that sometimes we are placed in difficult situations and we make the best of them. In that situation, 8 mins of discomfort has yielded so much good. I am not saying it is justified but I too would have weighed up the options and I can not say what I would have done because I was not there and I was not in your shoes. Sometimes hard decisions need to be made.
I currently have a 2yr old mare who I have trained in an IH way. My vet, farrier, yard owner and just about anyone that meets her tells me how good and well mannered she is for a 2 yr old. She does have a very sweet nature but is living proof this stuff works. Thank you for taking down those boards on your round pen and sharing it with us.
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tl
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Post by tl on May 29, 2012 16:42:06 GMT 1
What can one say, other than Monty, please continue with your good work.
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Post by troop on May 29, 2012 18:17:39 GMT 1
What can one say, other than Monty, please continue with your good work. Here here thank you for once again taking time out to answer on the DG Monty. Whatever anybody does things are unlikely to change overnight every tiny step forward can help lead to a better outcome
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Post by marychick on May 29, 2012 20:50:43 GMT 1
I really hope Monty has read this thread too so he know's it isn't all negative and we do still love him! ....Kelly anyway you can make sure he does!! ;D ;D
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