pip
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Post by pip on Mar 22, 2012 13:51:00 GMT 1
Why should you sell your horse? He sounds perfect for you and he obviously has a lovely life, with friends, exercise and a loving owner.
I note that he has 20 acres to roam in - that is quite a lot, most horses have to do with a lot less than that so he is able to express a lot of "natural behaviour" in an area that size.
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Post by 2 bays & a grey:D on Mar 22, 2012 13:59:23 GMT 1
I went through a stage years back when I stopped riding because I felt it wasn't my right to ride her & I felt cruel. It was my then instructer who said it is us who domesticated them, therefore it is up to us to keep them stimulated.
Some horses I feel are happy to amble through the fields, others I think need more mental stimulation.
I just want to point out also that hard work does not always equate to physical- mental work is very tiring for the horse and when Nancy has worked hard mentally and learned new things she is physically tired.
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Post by highlanderpony2002 on Mar 22, 2012 14:20:49 GMT 1
I sometimes think that ownership of horses has gone too far where many riders buy a horse instead of having lessons as it is perceived to be cheaper. A lot of these horses suffer untold problems due purely to ignorance and in defense of forums they do make finding information and education easier especially as there is a wide range of experience to benefit from. Anyone who slavishly follows one regime and wont bend is probably harming their horse or maybe advising others to harm theirs. The best means of learning is to learn of all the various methods out there and cherry pick what you feel is the best for you. There are many good horsemen who have never heard of IH and there are probably quite a few expounding about IH that dont have a clue what they are doing. I learned from a huge range of people and philosophies as well as by trial and error but I do learn something new everyday I dont think I am always right or that my way will suit every horse It suits mine. I would love mine to do more work but because they dont the are kept slim and restricted to d the best I can to give them a healthy life. Out 24/7 in a herd of 4 no rugs no grain and little or no hay they have had about 16 bales all winter as the grass ran out. They are given high fibre feeds as Hay gives them the squits if given ad lib so I manage them and their weight by restricted grazing PP in summer and free grazing in winter. I make sure I get the right amount of poo off the fields as this tells me they are getting enough or too much so as long as they are happy and healthy they are ok. I have made mistakes by letting the dartie onto too much grass against my better judgement to help someone out I wont do that again. I personally feel that if you cant get pleasure out of your horses and give them a near natural lifestyle maybe we shouldnt own them and should go back to having lessons. If you dont have time for exercise then the freedom for the horse to exercise itself free of rugs and walkers etc would be the only way I would be prepared to keep one. I would not keep horses if they were confined for more than 6-8 hours, Had no access to a least enough room for a good gallop and good company. It would break my heart but those are my minimum requirements for a horse
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Post by KimT on Mar 22, 2012 14:29:14 GMT 1
Nobody said you should sell your horse if you can't exercise it. I also agree that you are fortunate to have that much land for them to exercise themselves in. Most people only have about 4 acres.
The original point/discussion was for physical or behavioural problems, exercise is not often recommended when it should be. Not as a final solution but as part of a balanced regime.
Also throughly agree with the domestication point. I agree with keeping a horse as natural as possible but (similar to dogs) we have domesticated these animals over the course of hundreds of years to except human company and work. Some horses are happy with human company and some really like work.
I also agree that we arent always talking about strenuous physical work.
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Post by lawyerbunny on Mar 22, 2012 14:51:25 GMT 1
This is a fascinating thread.
I completely agree that where an owner asks for advice, the work needs and capabilities of the animal and how they are fulfilled doesn't receive the attention it should. I don't think as many people consider the issue when they buy - does the horse's 'work profile' fit mine, now and in the future - and not just at weekends. We thought about this a lot before we bought our dog - a lurcher that flops out all day and wants shortish regular bursts of exercise suits us perfectly!
I'd add a couple of things to the mix:
* 'Work' does involve mental stimulation, not just physical. Riding regular long rides around the same route every day would leave quite a few of the horses I've known bored as hell.
* So many people in this day and age find themselves hugely short of time that all elements end up being cut back. With animals, sometimes they get cut back too far, to the detriment of the animal. That's something I think we have to be really honest with ourselves about.
I'm largely with rj and lisap on the time and horse ownership issue. Sure, the ebb and flow of life means there are some times when we all have to juggle things about, but there has to be a real honesty about the effect that has on the welfare of the other animals in our lives. (I could include children in that, but don't have a bunker deep enough to protect me!)
I don't pretend I get the balance right, but the horse has first call on my free time and always will. She could do a heck of a lot more work than I give her, but she's healthy, happy (thin!) and content with plenty of space and a good herd to spend her time with and varied hacking companions and great hacking.
I'm not sure it adds anything to say 'if you can't do x minutes a week, you should sell your horse'. As ever, look at the horse in front of you, and ask yourself what IT - not the hypothetical horse - needs.
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Post by Yann on Mar 22, 2012 15:21:20 GMT 1
Mine live in an area more than twice that size, and I think it does make a big difference to their general health and demeanour, hence my earlier post on this thread.
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Post by Serenbean & Justine on Mar 22, 2012 16:01:16 GMT 1
Fab thread ;D
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Mar 22, 2012 16:28:14 GMT 1
I agree that we should keep horses as naturally as possible. That means big environments and lots of company. Given the company and room, I think they can keep themselves pretty fit.
Unfortunately, economics and horse and property culture means that it seems most people have little choice but to keep their horses in small groups and small fields.
It is quite bonkers where I live at the moment. There are a couple of hundred acres here probably and the horses are each fenced off in pairs on a few acres (or less in some cases) each. It's totally daft. We could open up all the gates and let all the horses graze freely in one herd. There would be no need for poo picking, the horses would have a lot more exercise, company and enjoyment. But try and explain that to even ordinary horsey people, let alone non-horsey estate managers!
It seems pretty much the same all over the place in the forest with private livery grazing. Yet the commoners keep their horses in large herds, either on forest or in their own fields and even the stallions get kept in a large herd on large fields when they are off the forest. I guess the private livery grazing market worries more about horses injuring each other and juggling the needs and requirements of livery owners.
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Post by Catrin on Mar 22, 2012 23:38:18 GMT 1
Interesting thread but how often do we think that because our horses are turned out they get exercise. In effect they get the same amount as we do by walking to the fridge, to the work top, cooker and dining table to get our food.
I watch ours. Turned out in the morning they sometimes canter the 100 yards distance between the water at the gate end of the field, and the haylage at the other. They eat the haylage, then spend eight hours travelling back to the gate, eating the grass as they go. That's over 12.5 miles/hour to get to the haylage and 12.5 yards/hour to get back to the gate!
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Mar 23, 2012 1:13:46 GMT 1
When TigerLily and Zee escape out on to the main part of the farm they live on (hasn't happened for a while now the fencing is better, but used to happen a lot) they did a lot of running about. They were on a 56 acre field, with an adjoining massive field, with a herd. I often watched them charging around with the herd. It was quite breathtaking seeing them at full gallop, flying across the back of the field with the herd - so wild, so free. It was beautiful to watch! It's one of those things that, on my death bed, I will be glad I saw Obviously, they weren't doing that all the time, but I did see quite a bit of it. They have a good canter and play in their own field too, just not so long and fast. They will normally have a good trot and canter about whilst I am mixing their feeds each day. That's their way of expressing their excitement. They have a run around if the forest ponies on the other side of the fence are running too. It's hard to know quite what they get up to when I am not there, but I think they self-fitten to some extent. They are generally in great shape and (thank the Lord!) remarkably healthy. Beauty lives at home with me, so I am better able to observe her throughout the day. I have noticed that Beauty runs around more when she is in bigger spaces. She has a foot abcess at the moment, so isn't getting up to a lot If I had a choice, I would keep my 3 in as large a space as possible with as many other horses as possible. I truly believe that's the healthiest and happiest way for them.
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Post by janwilky on Mar 23, 2012 9:59:30 GMT 1
This is an interesting post, I do agree that very often our horses need more exercise, just like we do, but if there's an underlying problem it may only make things worse. I also think that our modern rye-grass pastures may have more to answer for with behavioural and metabolic issues than many people realise. In a lot of cases (mine included), we're literally grazing our horses on poison.
The advice I was given by instructors, trainers and friends when I was having difficulties with my cob was to get on and ride him through it. So I did, and he got worse and worse, becoming tense and explosive. I did all the usual physical checks and he was deemed sound, so I sent him to a lovely NH trainer where he spent 6 months schooling and hacking. She had some scary moments with him too but he did get better, and I started hacking and schooling him at her place. We were doing 1.5-2 hour hacks a day, plus lunging, long-reining and schooling. She was a good and sensitive trainer, and he was fit and slim and mainly well behaved. But I still had the feeling that all was not quite right with him, physically or mentally. It was only when he bolted again at the end of the six months that I really began to listen to him, and to learn. The trainer gave up on him at this point - advised me to sell him to a strong male hunter. I didn't want to do that, so that was really the start of our journey, during which I gradually uncovered a raft of physical, dietary and emotional issues with him. And one of the key issues, I now think, was grass sensitivity which affected his feet, his soundness and most of all his temperament. He's a different horse on soaked hay and balanced minerals. I got nowhere with vets and other health professionals, and I'm sure I would never have got to the bottom of it all without the internet and forums, so I think that's one reason why this is such a good place for people to come when they're having difficulties with their horse. There's such a huge pool of collective knowledge and experience to be tapped into.
I haven't ridden Lucas for nearly 18 months, but the good news for us is I think we're almost ready to start again - I sat on him briefly last week and he was fine. I'm so looking forward to long hacks out and about, and then, when he's ready for it, I think the work will help him a lot for all the reasons Lisa and others have said. So yes, work should be part of the advice that's given but it's not the answer in all cases, at least not until the underlying issues have been resolved.
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Post by mags on Mar 23, 2012 10:24:11 GMT 1
Yes, I think there's an elephant here. But I think it is the fact that there are plenty of people about these days who enjoy spending time with horses but for one reason or another don't actually want to ride them.
I don't think there's anything wrong with keeping a horse as a pasture pet. We breed horses to serve our purposes, just as with cats and dogs. Over time, this has changed from work horse to leisure horse to include a pet/companion role. While I agree that exercise is a vital part of controlling weight, horses were not born with riders on their backs, and I do think it is possible with good management to keep an unridden horse happy and healthy at a good weight.
But I wish the non-riders would be honest about their goals (maybe even to themselves) and not use excuses for why today isn't a good day to get on. I've worked my way through problems with my horse over the past four years since I bought my gelding, and the DG has been a great resource. But other than the period when he was lame with a broken splint, he has been ridden at least 5 times a week throughout. Saddle doesn't fit? Ride bareback. Can't quite cope with the terrain shoe-less? Boot up and keep riding. I like to ride, this is why I keep a horse. And when a horse becomes a pet (rather than a working animal), it takes that much more awareness and vigilance to keep at the right weight.
Just so you don't jump down my throat, I'm not implying that a horse could or should be ridden through every problem (especially a medical one), nor that every person who doesn't ride while sorting out a problem is in truth trying to avoid riding. But I have met quite a lot of people (in real life) who do seem to fit that description.
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Post by mandal on Mar 23, 2012 11:07:57 GMT 1
I didn't want to do that, so that was really the start of our journey, during which I gradually uncovered a raft of physical, dietary and emotional issues with him. And one of the key issues, I now think, was grass sensitivity which affected his feet, his soundness and most of all his temperament. He's a different horse on soaked hay and balanced minerals. I got nowhere with vets and other health professionals, and I'm sure I would never have got to the bottom of it all without the internet and forums, so I think that's one reason why this is such a good place for people to come when they're having difficulties with their horse. There's such a huge pool of collective knowledge and experience to be tapped into. I haven't ridden Lucas for nearly 18 months, but the good news for us is I think we're almost ready to start again - I sat on him briefly last week and he was fine. I'm so looking forward to long hacks out and about, and then, when he's ready for it, I think the work will help him a lot for all the reasons Lisa and others have said. So yes, work should be part of the advice that's given but it's not the answer in all cases, at least not until the underlying issues have been resolved. You see it's stories like this and laurac's journey with Big Fella that make me wonder how many horses in days gone by just put up and shut up. The ones who reacted extremely were got rid of in one way or another. I do think horses in fields don't get enough exercize but luckily it only seems to be some who develop problems like laminitis so being a pasture pet isn't generally a problem for the horse so long as weight etc.is kept at a good level. The problems come when we want to use horses and then that ability to cope is tipped into saying hang on I'm sore, unfit or whatever. Exercize may well be the way to go for the majority as it helps with so many aspects but there are also some who need investigating for other problems and this is I believe where many of the posts on forums like this come in. I think they help horses in general so much as well because many of us are alerted to possibilities to consider and gain knowledge. Of course we must also try and guard against putting stuff onto our horses that isn't there. For the rider avoiding riding I see fth has started a blog she has linked on the confidence board. The thing here is to search your soul and as has been said above be honest with yourself. ihdg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=confidence&action=display&thread=121427&page=1
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Post by taklishim on Mar 23, 2012 11:19:54 GMT 1
Just so you don't jump down my throat, I'm not implying that a horse could or should be ridden through every problem (especially a medical one), nor that every person who doesn't ride while sorting out a problem is in truth trying to avoid riding. But I have met quite a lot of people (in real life) who do seem to fit that description. totally agree with you. There are some horses who genuinely have problems but ground work seems to have become the "practical alternative to riding". It is important but at some stage most horses benefit if you get off the ground and start taking them out for some fun. IR/EMS horses can be dramatically improved with exercise. As for barefoot, well IMHO the biggest reason people don't achieve gravel crunchers is lack of work. I have spoken to people who wanted their horses BF. You ask them about their exercising. Then you say they may have to make some changes. They are quite happy to tell you they will turn the horse out in the field for as long as it needs. That is followed by the look of horror as you say you were actually expecting them to exercise it each day. ;D Riding doesn't seem to be on some people's agenda. That doesn't matter until it produces very bored horses who start looking for mischief which then soon starts to cause problems which is back to the OP's comments.
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Post by mandal on Mar 23, 2012 11:23:57 GMT 1
I imagine those people need to be aware they will have to use boots if they aren't going to put the miles in Taklishim. I'm sure this is another suggestion that raises eyebrows. ;D
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