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Post by marychick on Mar 22, 2012 0:48:52 GMT 1
Hi Mary, I made the work 'pet' seem disparaging. Sorry about that. What I meant to suggest, that horses don't do well if they are coddled like pets. Ooh gawd, my horses are pets, but they have the needs of livestock and work which is very different to what my dogs and cats need from me. No problem ;D I do understand your point and I do agree with you that too often people seem to coddle their horses and can lead to alot of issues and suffering on the part of the horse- e.g one of the worst I've come across is thinking it's funny to give their horses fizzy drinks!! I guess we just have to find a balance- most of us don't need our horses for work and that can be a wonderful thing but we need to make sure we're understanding their needs from a health perspective and that doesnt mean more food and rugs!
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Post by mandal on Mar 22, 2012 0:52:00 GMT 1
It isn't just natives that weight creeps on though. I totally agree that most domestic horses are fat!
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Post by rosemaryhannah on Mar 22, 2012 1:14:55 GMT 1
I wish, oh I wish I had two hours a day - but I don't. I have grand children, a cottage to renovate, a book just going to the printer, another being written, and a job of work earning money. If I am lucky I get an hour to ride, if less lucky, and particularly in winter - half an hour or else I leave home in the dark and return in the dark.
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Caroline
Grand Prix Poster
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 2,277
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Post by Caroline on Mar 22, 2012 4:47:00 GMT 1
I agree that more work probably solves behavioural and weight management problems for many horses - but obviously not all.
My OH was in the Met Police for over 25 years and in that time was often involved with the riot training of police horses. From what he and other retired officers have told me, it seems that the horses are chosen for their bold and sensible natures and then extensively trained to deal with increasing levels of stress - spook busting taken to the extreme. If they don't cope with that process, they don't make the grade as a police horse. Failed police horses would probably make wonderful riding horses for the hobby owner. All that de-spooking already done!
It is similar with the police dogs. I placed a Malinois (like a GSD but more full-on) that I had fostered with the police last year. She was a fabulous dog and great for police work in many ways, but she just wasn't bold enough when it came to guns, so she was eventually rejected from the training process (and adopted into a lovely police dog handler home).
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midgey
Olympic Poster
Posts: 571
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Post by midgey on Mar 22, 2012 7:54:50 GMT 1
I think our horses need to be kept in a more natural way.
Turn them out , feed them appropriately, give them company , appropriate exercise ,spend time with them.Do not over rug.
To many horses are kept in a stable for far to long, fed an unnatural diet , kept isolated from contact with other horses and only exercised in a school. No wonder people get problems.
Obviously not all problems are caused by the way we keep our horses. But perhaps that is something we should look at first.
Do we look for complicated answers when things are actually more simple.
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Post by ellibell on Mar 22, 2012 9:26:22 GMT 1
I agree that there is too much over coddling of ponies these days. MIne are blanket clipped and unrugged, they come in overnight 3/4 of the year to manage waistlines. But they get over 12 hrs a day out most of the time, apart fromthe depth of winter where they dictate what they want then. But I have a rehab welshie in ATM, whos lovely owners are into showing. Her owner has nearly had a nervous breakdown as the pony now is rugless. (She is not even clipped) Even when it was minus5, IMO she was just too warm in a stone barn with 4 other ponies and doors shut to warrrent a rug on. She did wear a rug for a short time while at her poorliest as she was cold then, but I checked her 10pm, 4am and altered rugs accordingly. Her owner has still gone out and bought a new fleece hood rug, when asked why, to keep her clean, I asked why she will never be fat enough to show, and really you should be thankful that the vets are now saying she *may* be hackable, as 2 vets had written her off saying her pedal bones where about to drop and removing the heartbars whill make her worse. 7 weeks on she is out int he arena for up to 10 hrs a day, with 2 walks inhand (1/4 mile each walk, with boots on half on planings lane and grass) and she has seen how happy she is and chilled she is, yet still insists she should be rugged to the eyeballs, even though she can see how well she is doing and the improvement. This is even after I have stopped All treats (she loves to feed polos, lots of raw veg etc) . What I dont understand is they can see the HUGE differnece in her yet seem unable to see that what a pony needs is not the same as a human ( ie central heated stables, lots of clothing, fancy shoes, fancy feeds and no boundaries, a strong social group of horses, lots of turn out and fibre in the form of hay and straw! ) . I laughed last night as the weather was ace, but a small breeze and she closed one of the barn doors saying the horse was in a draught and cold, I said what do you mean, you are in a draght and cold? Mare it enjoying looking out sniffing the breeze while munching on her straw, not the the slightest bit cold lol (and re-opened the doors lol) . The reasons behind it I get are well she loves to Pamper and fuss her pony. My reply is well your pony would much prefer boundaries, good grooming sessions after a big roll in the mud and walks inhand over rugging and treats and constant stabling to keep her clean!
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Post by rj on Mar 22, 2012 10:20:50 GMT 1
'BUT, what are the people that work/study away mon-fri or dont finish work til 6pm in the city supposed to do? Not have horses?'
Well, if you are looking at the welfare of the horses, the answer has to be a big fat resounding 'YES'!!
I came from a backgound and an age when owning a horse was considered to be the privilege of the rich, and for good reason in my opinion. They had knowledgeable experienced staff & were usually pretty good (OK perhaps many weren't!) themselves, but they kept horses for work or their own amusement - eg Hunting. My friend, an old fashioned farmers wife in her 80's now used to keep her horses for hunting. She would bring them into work carefully in the late summer, with walk exercise, then trot etc which she found sooo boring but knew it had to be done. Then she'd hunt hard the whole season. Then she would turn them out & pretty well forget them all summer (though worming & feet etc were all done properly) to let them rest. It was only when I went to her farm with my horse when she was around 70 that it even occurred to her to hack out. But if her horses got to 20 they'd be lucky & in general of course horses were considered old at 15 (which is why Insurers make it so difficult to insure horses after 15).
There are too many horses in the UK - & reading the web where I regularly check horse news, the rest of the world - and many aren't being looked after properly, being abandoned/dumped etc.
It would make sense to control breeding and for more people to lease, loan or share their horses, so that everyone gets to spend the time they can, share the costs and work, and I am sure the horses would benefit.
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Post by jennyb on Mar 22, 2012 10:25:40 GMT 1
Agreed. And the vets are now saying that exercise, and LOTS of it, is the main key to keeping laminitis at bay! I love fast hacks, I am wandering around with a huge grin on my face now that the light and weather means more riding and fast, long hacks, I love it and it keeps the horses fit and healthy. I had a Stage 4 jumping lesson yesterday, the lovely cob I rode had already been ridden twice that day, I jumped 1m on her for around half an hour, and she went into a stable to rest for a few hours before she had her final lesson of the day. Fit, healthy, and no problems. I am constantly banging on about under exercising, over feeding and over rugging in my Horse Owners courses. BUT I will also educate about how to watch out for signs of genuine physical issues such as ulcers, back pain, saddle fit etc. It's only in recent years that we have developed the technology to do serious studies on things like ulcers, and we all know that over 75% of leisure horses have been shown to have them. So it's not sensible to discount them completely, we must keep up with the times in terms of latest vet research and changing management recommendations, at the same time of upholding the traditional work ethic! The likelihood is that years ago some horses did have ulcers and learned to put up and shut up, because no-one knew what was wrong. We don't need to do that these days.
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Post by misty on Mar 22, 2012 10:25:58 GMT 1
I think the term is 'pony polisher' ellibell. Most of this is done with the best of intentions and ofcourse at the end of the day their ponies look 'prettier' than others that lead a more normal life.
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Post by spanisheyes on Mar 22, 2012 10:36:37 GMT 1
Hmmm Im not sure if my recent thread is one where people are thinking 'just work the horse and he will be fine'.
If they are they must have missed the part about him having an unexplained bucking fit that left me airlifted to hospital with concussion and 4 hrs memory missing. When I came round to be informed by my husband that Id had a CT scan and a neck x ray that I have no recollection of I thought, 'enough is enough, there is something wrong with my horse and I will do everything I can to find out what'.
There if far too much information about him for me to include in one or even several threads. I think Mandals point about most people coming on here for support if they have a problem is very true.
We can only give people a brief snapshot of our problem horses and yes, that can leave people thinking the solution is an obvious one.
I would love nothing more than to be out riding my horse for hours. Its a huge sacrifice for me to keep him as a pet while I try to fix him but hes my horse and my responsibility, ridden or not.
When I was riding my TB mare I never even knew what an internet forum was. I was too busy hacking for hours on end, schooling, showing and having FUN. ;D
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Post by mandal on Mar 22, 2012 10:37:14 GMT 1
Over rugging arghhh! I'm convinced this has all sorts of negative effects on the horse's physiology and I wonder if it may also contribute to the increase in metabolic problems. I'm sure there are many horses feeling too hot or too cold for hours on end. A horse can't take a rug off if it feels too hot or put another on if it's chilled. Having their body temp mechanism disrupted must have a huge negative impact. Barn stables that are closed can't be good either. Horses like cattle are out door animals and I know there are problems with cattle getting lung infections in closed covered areas. Air flow is crucial.
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Post by mandal on Mar 22, 2012 10:46:42 GMT 1
I meant to say that yes it's good to question if we have managed in a way to contribute or even cause a horses problem but I would hate to think that people are feeling bad or even crushed by this thread and are unwilling to post in future. Forums like this are such a great place for sharing info and experience and many of us have learned so much more from dealing with and sharing problems.
Perhaps work is often put lower on the list of rehab suggestions than it should be but often things are past that stage and stuff needs to be addressed to enable work.
For me the general take home message is work as much as you can to the horses current ability.
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Post by 2 bays & a grey:D on Mar 22, 2012 10:51:54 GMT 1
Very interesting and thought provoking, especially given I posted yesterday about metabolic issues.
I think listening to the horse is very important, I was guilty of not doing, and ended up with a whole load of other issues to deal with. If I had listened to her as a 4 year old instead of thinking she needs work, she needs work then I would have a very different horse on my hands! Instead I have a troubled remedial horse. Thats may be why I look at TOO many signs, but, that made me sit up and listen. The slight swishing of the tail, the spookyness, reaching down to touch the ground, all small signs that something wasn't right.
In the old days I would have pushed her through it, 'made' her go into that corner she was worried about, made her trot round. Instead I put things in place, got her back on the succeed, soaked her hay, worked her softly softly. lots of walk, building confidence, only asking for trot when relaxed in walk etc etc. Last night I had a much better session with her as I hadn't dented her confidence so much by 'making' her do what I wanted her to do, all because she 'needed to be worked'.
However, I do agree with bad management, over feeding. I have been guilty of having her very overweight, this was due to my paranoia of ulcers so made sure she had food ALL the time. I have since learned from that mistake and manage her diet very well, I have had to given that she is prone to put weight on. However, for this particular horse, hard work would not be the answer. I just don't think mentally she could deal with it, so things have to be taken slowly, for her confidence. The same with any horse I work with now.
When you have had a horse proven to have behavioural issues because of physical issues it does make you ultra paranoid and you look at every sign.
Mandal is right about the new barefoot wave bringing to light problems that are otherwise masked by shoes. Thats why I have taken my horses barefoot, for me its a positive thing.
I have a very competitive nature, the reason why I bought a sport horse, I have had to put my desires to one side and listen to what my horse can deal with, despite her natural ability, her start in life ruined her, and I didn't help.
I used to compete as a child, was very successful and won many championships, hacked for hours every day. Never had the vet to her, she was on the simplest of diets. She was fizzy and exciteable, in fact a cracking pony,I never had lessons, just got on with it. I do think todays society of horsemanship (well at least a proportion, there are still lots that dont listen)is very guilty of 'over thinking' everything. For me its that fine line of listening, but not reading into every sign possible else I wouldn't do anything with my horses. And remembering that they are not machines, they have off days and sometimes don't want to work, but this doesn't mean there is something wrong.
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Post by 2 bays & a grey:D on Mar 22, 2012 11:02:03 GMT 1
Over rugging arghhh! I'm convinced this has all sorts of negative effects on the horse's physiology and I wonder if it may also contribute to the increase in metabolic problems. I'm sure there are many horses feeling too hot or too cold for hours on end. A horse can't take a rug off if it feels too hot or put another on if it's chilled. Having their body temp mechanism disrupted must have a huge negative impact. Barn stables that are closed can't be good either. Horses like cattle are out door animals and I know there are problems with cattle getting lung infections in closed covered areas. Air flow is crucial. I used to be guilty of over rugging, I have since learned and they only have a fleece on even when its only 4 degrees. Always on a mission to learn and improve ;D
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Post by lisap on Mar 22, 2012 11:03:11 GMT 1
I was the original poster of this thread but I haven't read your particular thread, Spanish eyes and am sorry to hear that you were airlifted to hospital.
Look, like everything, there is no one size that fits all, and of course there are perfectly good reasons why horses are difficult to ride or have problems that have nothing to do with lack of exercise.
My point was that in the plethora of advice that is offered here, asking the owner who has the problem what level of exercise their horse receives seems to be either low on the agenda, or absent.
As someone who has works professionally with horses, and who still works alongside many other professionals - who are caring, knowledgeable and observant with their horses - they will all say the same thing "Lack of proper exercise is a major contributory factor to many other problems". These problems range from poor behaviour on the ground, being unsettled in the field/stable, itchiness (yep, that is definitely can be a symptom of a horse not getting rid of a build up of toxins through good, honest sweat), overweight, foot problems, lameness through unfitness etc etc and so on and so forth.
And, yes, I agree with RJ. The welfare of the horse is paramount, and if the owner cannot arrange things so that the horse is exercised properly (and this does not mean 30 minutes in the school 3 times a week, or a one hour hack round the lanes at the weekend at walk or a bit of trot), then perhaps they need to consider whether they are putting their own requirements before that of the horse.
I'm forever banging on about sharers. We have no fewer than 5 extra riders who mop up the riding where owners can't manage to get down to the yard more than a couple of times a week. And this is on a yard where all the horses live out 24/7 as well.
Perhaps we should also define our terms. I read somewhere recently that a horse cannot be considered fully transitioned to barefoot if it is not capable of being ridden 40 miles a month over a variety of terrain.
I think this could equally apply to general exercise of the grass kept horse, with the addition that a few of these monthly miles need to be up hills and also in the faster paces of canter and gallop.
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