|
Post by kizi on Dec 20, 2011 1:52:04 GMT 1
I know it's been done on here before, I have read the old posts etc. but no clear positive (or not) outcome... My mare did splits a year ago. Has has a year of neuromuscular and osteo treatments etc. I was told 3+ months ago there was no more they could do and to start her back to work and see how she goes. It took a long time and a lot or attention to detail in starting her back in hand. -she had muscle, nerve and ligament damage. Was shuffling her back feet and even had to look back some times to life hinds over a pole on the floor. She came on very well, built good muscle and after almost 3 months of that I had sat on her a few times, and she was up to pretty well fit, but still not 100%. Osteo and neuro saw her a few more times during that 3 months and except minor tweaks felt she was progressing well. 2 weeks ago I got osteo back again as I really felt she's not 100% sound. And she confirmed after lunge on yard and flexion that she's not sound. It's only slight but I know my horse. Osteo did more manipulation and feels there's restricted movement between hock and stifle on LH. She feels both joints need X-ray. I don't disagree that that is the only way to see the joints. My problem is if those X-rays are clear my vet will want to investigate further..bla bla nerve blocks, lots more lunge on hard surface etc etc by the end of which it will take another 6 months to calm her back down.... I am thinking, if I get thermal imaging done first it will help eliminate muscle neuro or ligament issues if the problem is located at the joint? ? But it will also tell us if there are more issues than those joints? Because there's 2 joints in question, it's possible it's a muscle or ligament issue between those joints is at fault....in which case the joints may be clear on the thermal and a muscle etc highlighted, in which case the joints won't necessarily need X-ray at all.... Am I fooling myself and delaying the inevitable? In your experience am I not better prepared in having the thermal images before I go vet, or, is the thermal imaging just going to tell me the same thing as osteo. There is a small element of avoiding X-ray where possible because if there's a big problem that will prevent her being ridden I actually don't want to know....that's not something I can cope with right now.... But, I know that if the X-ray is necessary then I will have to do it....I am also however very aware that it has taken me 2 years to get my girl to calm down!! (she's 6) and the thought of bring her to the vets for all that stress is not something I want to do unless totally no other option, she doesn't travel well and as she's been off work over a year hasn't exactly been out very many places so the excitement will also mask any slight lameness etc, and if it's so slight vet will tell me work her through it, and I just can't ride my horse if it's hurting her, even slightly..... Sorry, planned on keeping this short. Am just looking for your experiences of the accuracy of thermography!!!! Thanks... I need my girl better, it's breaking my heart...
|
|
|
Post by Yann on Dec 20, 2011 7:22:50 GMT 1
I would definitely give it a shot, at least it stands a chance of giving you a clearer idea of what's actually causing the problem. No direct experience of it, but we had a demo on the yard this weekend and it does look like another very useful option, especially if there's vague or slight lameness. It might have been useful with one of mine in hindsight and saved us what turned out to be a futile session of nerve blocking so I'd certainly try it in future in similar circumstances.
|
|
rie1
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 162
|
Post by rie1 on Dec 20, 2011 8:06:44 GMT 1
Not sure if its any use but this months Horse and Rider has an article on thermography. It appears to be fairly in-depth,there is also a website for more info if you're interested? www.veterinary-thermal-imaging.com. Sorry i cant give a direct link but hope this is of some help.
|
|
|
Post by lisap on Dec 20, 2011 9:42:09 GMT 1
www.equiscan.co.uk/This is the company I used when Tuli had a full thermographic image done earlier this year. They use Electronic Medical Interpretation to analyse and interpret the images. BEWARE. There are lots and lots of companies out there who offer thermographic imaging. They use an industrial imager and not a medical imager. You will know the difference as the cost is vastly different. I paid £400 for a full body scan to be done on Tuli. This is because they use a human grade medical thermographic imager (the same as are used in hospitals and Veterinary schools). The medical grade imager can show where there are hot/cold spots right into organ level of the horse, not just skin and surface muscle. So, if you decide to get it done, it is not cheap. However, my decision was based on the fact that Tuli was showing a number of non-specific symptoms of stiffness, resistance and discomfort. A day with our vets would have been inconclusive and cost at least the same as the thermographic imaging. I was very pleased with the results and Equiscan sent (with my permission) the images to their recommended Osteopath, Bruce Hewett - who is fantastic, by the way - and he came out and manipulated Tuli based on the images. He hasn't looked back since. However, we also had two other horses manipulated by Bruce who hadn't had images done, and they have shown the same improvements - and in one case it is even more marked - so perhaps I could have skipped the thermogram and just gone straight to the osteopath! ;D
|
|
|
Post by kizi on Dec 20, 2011 11:05:50 GMT 1
Thanks. In Ireland there seems to only be a few people doing it but have been trained by that English company... Having read these I do have a few more questions for them! Thanks...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2011 11:54:25 GMT 1
I'd ring your vet and ask their opinion. My vet's view on thermography was that it could show up things that aren't actually a problem and lead you down the wrong path, so if something showed up he thought was bone he'd want to x-ray anyway and then you need to nerve block before treatment so it was just another expense. In the end, I found an excellent body worker who didn't need any kind of scan or imaging to tell her where Talin's problems were, she could feel them (obviously she can't feel internal organs, but she can feel a horse's leg and know if it's muscle, ligament or tendon or one of the sheaths that's the problem).
|
|
|
Post by kizi on Dec 20, 2011 12:52:07 GMT 1
I'd ring your vet and ask their opinion. My vet's view on thermography was that it could show up things that aren't actually a problem and lead you down the wrong path, so if something showed up he thought was bone he'd want to x-ray anyway and then you need to nerve block before treatment so it was just another expense. In the end, I found an excellent body worker who didn't need any kind of scan or imaging to tell her where Talin's problems were, she could feel them (obviously she can't feel internal organs, but she can feel a horse's leg and know if it's muscle, ligament or tendon or one of the sheaths that's the problem). Hi Did you get it done? Or decide not to based on vets thoughts? Just wondering if he said that before or after.. I do have a very very good body worker, and trust her totally as she's been spot on in the past with others. But because this has been going on for over a year and because these latest problems didn't identify themselves until recently she agrees that there may be other stuff going on too, that the lameness etc is so small that she can see it but can't be 100% sure because my mare is well muscled now, is a cob type and a good doer :-D so there's more structures in the way so to speak.... She is speaking to a newly set up company at the moment who do this imaging with the human grade machine which is a lot more detailed than the industrial ones. She agrees that there's a chance X-ray won't show up much as she feels it's more of a stiffness than an obvious boney injury. I dunno, basically I want to avoid invasive stuff where possible, if the thermal also suggests hock/stifle and nothing else much then obviously I got to X-ray, it's all the sedation etc I don't want. Vet insists on sedation for X-rays, if xrays show nothing and further investigation is required its 48 hours wait after sedation, then he does nerve blocks and more lingering and on and on and I'm just trying to figure out if one session on thermo will eliminate some of that. For the vet to do all the investigating will cost lots more but that aside it will also be a lot more stressful for my mare as well as take more time.... Sheesh I dunno. I'm so fed up of it!
|
|
|
Post by kizi on Dec 20, 2011 12:52:39 GMT 1
I just want to ride my horse
|
|
|
Post by kizi on Dec 20, 2011 13:20:31 GMT 1
Well... I have spoken to a friend with some very valuable animals so cost was not an issue. If thermography works-why don't the vets have it!!!!! They have used it on animals with specific known injuries ie: a tendon, and it was not as accurate as a regular scan or X-ray. She has used MRI and skintography and found those far more accurate.....she feels thermography is a waste of time....hmmm Now I'm more confused what to do! The vets have a 'lameness locater' which can detect minute lameness and intermittent lameness and pin point a leg. It can't pin point a joint, so then you go nerve blocking and lunge more etc. It it attached to the horse at several points and they are lunged, it gives graphs/foot fall images etc Maybe I'm best to stop cutting corners and just let the vet do his job......
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2011 15:33:00 GMT 1
That was a discussion I had prior to getting it done and it put me off. We are in different situations though, we knew Talin was in pain but had no idea where it was, at least you're looking at a specific area. My vet was trying to prevent me spending all my life savings as Talin's diagnostics weren't covered by insurance so I couldn't afford to add in extra steps that weren't likely to be conclusive.
|
|
|
Post by kizi on Dec 20, 2011 16:59:05 GMT 1
Ya I just decided to hell with it I'm gonna give it a go ha! It won't hurt her and shouldn't stress her and as they are only setting up in Ireland they are doing introductory offer and can come tomorrow. Vets can't do anything till January now anyway with being busy this week and on emergency only for Xmas week..... 10am tomorrow!!
|
|
|
Post by jen526 on Dec 20, 2011 17:39:20 GMT 1
Good luck
I had a thermal image done on my mare, intermittent lameness o/s front being brought on by a very low level of work and she started to feel wrong when ridden overall but, by such a small amount I couldn't decide what or where it was!. A sensitive mare, not urgent lameness so I opted for the scan before the vet. For me it worked perfectly, highlighted heat around the n/s stifle (though it was not locking). Showed the images to the vet who then examined her and confirmed the problem, and the lameness on the o/s front was due to her compensating.
Be aware the images are affected very much by weather conditions, a slight breeze, sun coming out from behind a cloud, also brushing them!. Ideally it should be done in a draft free stable.
The scan also showed my knees as bright white, it was spot on there too!
Good luck and hope it helps you.
|
|
|
Post by kizi on Dec 20, 2011 18:10:00 GMT 1
Thanks Jen, Is your mare ok now? I'm hoping to stick a few of my own limbs in too haha tho with the amount of clothes I ware I don't think there's much point! They have told me all about the draughts etc and seem to have a reasonable answer for every question I could fire at them... I brought her in this afternoon as she has to be mud free and dry, oh boy what a job to get the mud off her.... Lots more brushing to do later once she's dry. In the morning I am just going to change her into a light rug a hour before and give her a quick brush if needed. Problem is she does have a little bit of feather and I'm hoping I won't have to trim it off....I never have cause I wish she had more!!!! We'd planned to lunge her if necessary but bugger witch lost another shoe today. So tempted to just take them off but I know she needs them...she's a sensitive princess and the pea type!!!! HATES the rain on her back or getting splashed! First and foremost I hope she just behaves tomorrow, but hopefully we might get a few more clues...and I won't feel like I'm doing nothing....
|
|
|
Post by jen526 on Dec 20, 2011 19:11:37 GMT 1
She's coming along nicely thanks, doing specific work to help her, so far so good!. The hair won't make any difference providing she has it on all fours! It is fascinating to watch, very much a comparison of one side of the horse to the other - at which point if you are holding her, your legs will be in the scan too! Just chill and enjoy, if you are calm and talking to the person doing the scan (will keep you breathing) I am sure your mare will pick up on your calmness and be fine. Good luck, please let us know how it goes
|
|
|
Post by kizi on Dec 20, 2011 20:17:48 GMT 1
thanks, ya i know well how to keep madam calm now, it has taken a long time to build that trust, she was a 3 year old with a lot of issues when i got her! which i didnt know at the time! apparently she was weaned bad or was an orphan foal, not sure!
thats why i am trying to keep veterinary interaction to a minimum as tho he is a top vet, he would lose his temper with her! and he is a fan of box rest. i am not nor is she!!!!
I will let ya know how we get on tomorrow. thanks. thats my girl in my profile pic/avatar thingy!
|
|