Rik
Elementary Poster
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Post by Rik on Jul 15, 2011 15:44:16 GMT 1
Seegar appears to have gone now but Baucher is here now instead
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Post by rj on Jul 18, 2011 13:34:51 GMT 1
Coo-er, what a lot of stuff to do my head in. Very very interesting but I only understand approx 30% of it! I just wanted to ask, please; Is Classical Riding & Classical Dressage one & the same thing, because I thought not (tho no idea why)?
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Rik
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Post by Rik on Jul 18, 2011 18:27:48 GMT 1
Depends who you ask most people would say it’s Dressage based on Classical principles, But I would maintain there is no such thing as Classical Dressage, it’s merely a gimmick.
Classical Riding does not have a direct link to Dressage, Dressage evolved from the drills of Cavalry riding halls.
If you look at it’s first appearance in the Olympics of 1912. (Worth noting not that many years before this only male Cavalry Officers could compete in Dressage.)
It comprised of
1) A test on the flat for up to 10 Mins
2) Additionally, all dressage horses were required to jump 4 obstacles which were a maximum of 1.1 meters high, and another fence with a 3 meter spread
3) Asked to perform an "obedience test," riding the horse near spooky objects.
Not really Haute Ecole.
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Post by Zuzan on Jul 18, 2011 20:23:06 GMT 1
I always thought Dressage was a term for preparing a horse for a ridden career... ?
NB don't really understand how the ethos has changed that much ... as many of the "old masters" did displays and their reputations were to certain extent built on the horses they "produced" and there was I suspect as much room for run away egos there as in modern competition dressage.
MTA hence Baucher's 1st method and other more agressive / gadget ridden efforts used by earlier masters.. I don't think Modern Dressage can boast to be the instigator of agressive training methods and severe gadgets / bits etc.
FWIW the Classical element for me is understanding the methods that work WITH the horse to better it's physical ability to carry a rider as easily as possible... picking and choosing from the old masters not necessarily being partisan about one master over another.
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Rik
Elementary Poster
Posts: 62
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Post by Rik on Jul 18, 2011 21:15:10 GMT 1
Derek had posted briefly a picture of Seeger with a comment intimating that this picture showed the truth about him. I had hoped he would post it again as it highlights the difficulties we experience with texts of the past. This is the picture but it’s not as big as the one Derek posted. I think Derek posted this to show the open mouthed horse, not accepting the bit and generally looking distressed. But this is a convention used at the time to show a relaxed jaw without tension. We look at the same picture 160 years later and see something different, context is really important with all these old texts.
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Post by heather on Jul 23, 2011 17:02:35 GMT 1
Well perhaps to return to the original context of the thread, Classical vv competition, not all 'classical' is good, and not all 'competition' is bad. Having been in this business as a teacher for a little over 40 years, I have seen so much come and go, and sometimes come back again!
Diane Thurman-Baker is possibly the least known of all classical trainers in this country, simply because she is too modest to promote herself! But her daughter, Samantha, is proving that classical principles can be applied to competition dressage, and to be able to win at the very highest levels.
Sam's horse, Spring Pascal, was found for her by a friend of mine in Wales, and cost all of £4000. He is a mixture of breeding, and not at all the expensive sporthorse that it is thought must be required for GP nowadays. Sam at 17, has been tipped for the very top, has beaten young German riders at their own game on exclusively bred warmbloods, and is beating some of our top adult riders now, in GP competitions. So it just shows, that good sound, classical training can still be recognised in competition.
I remember Diane riding in a lesson with Dr Klimke. He assumed that she had bought her one eyed Luso stallion, Diabo, as a schoolmaster. He congratulated her throughout and told her how much this horse would teach her. I cringed in my seat, knowing that Diane had started that horse from scratch and taken him to High School level herself!
I watched her one year at Golega horse fair in Portugal, on Diabo's half Connemara son, Lucca, perform one time changes the whole way round the track known as the 'Manga' around the showground in the middle of the town, Lucca, looking for all the world like he was skipping, effortlessly, never missing a single change. There are few GP riders who could do that!
So, no, I do not believe that competition necessarily has to lessen the quality of the art of classical dressage. It is purely money that has corrupted it. It is the judging system that needs a complete overhaul. Jenny, the fact that you are winning also speaks loudly that maybe, the judges are starting to open their eyes to correct riding and training again. And maybe, if there were actually more riders out there, sitting quietly, applying discreet aids, AND who were winning, then maybe a few more riders would be beating a path to my door to improve their marks! And do you know what, if that was their only reason for improving their riding, they would be shown the door!! ;D
Heather
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 23, 2011 17:12:07 GMT 1
Hi folks, Just back from my week's holiday at the bottom of an internet-free valley in Wales. I did indeed make a short post before I left which contained the image of Louis Seeger. It seems to have disappeared, though, so either I screwed up somewhere in the process or it's been removed for some reason (mods?) or maybe this board just has some glitches in it...? Anyway, this thread appears to have died in the meantime but I've no doubt there will be plenty of time for related discussions in the future... Rik said: Absolutely true. He was also considered an "equestrian genius" by at least as many others of his time and post his lifetime... See you all in the next thread, lol!
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Post by heather on Jul 23, 2011 17:50:44 GMT 1
There are plenty who criticise Oliveira, Derek, perhaps not quite as influential as Baucher, but whom many regarded as THE classical horseman of the 20th century. And I will bet that not one of those critics, could ride and train, even a fraction as well as Mestre O! I am waiting for the next round of Moffett bashing when my book revision comes out in a couple of months, and I am nobody, in comparison!! But I will still be battening down the hatches as I know from past experience, what is likely to happen. Luckily I have a tough hide, or I wouldnt have lasted in this business! Ah well............
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2011 11:18:26 GMT 1
I hope you'll be announcing it on here Heather as I'd like a copy
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Rik
Elementary Poster
Posts: 62
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Post by Rik on Jul 26, 2011 10:19:44 GMT 1
Is that the "equestrian genius" who reputedly never rode outside the ménage? that has widely been considered a flawed "equestrian genius" for over a century?
I guess the context is Classical Riding in it’s current use (As opposed to it’s original use in the Renaissance to denote the classical period of the 5th and 4th centuries BC) doesn’t really mean anything, it covers such a variety of schools and methods, half the time you can argue something is and isn’t Classical at the same time by taking different schools or periods of history as the reference points.
You could argue the FEI Dressage is an evolution of the Prussian schools through Germanic such that the original point is moot, both are Classical Riding.
Seems to me it all these labels get in the way of good riding or horsemanship, what ever name it goes by.
But then what is good riding or horsemanship, people can’t agree on that.
Plenty of people who can ride and train horse deserve criticism or to be challenged, it’s their answers to those critic’s or questions we derive opinion from.
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Post by lisap on Jul 27, 2011 13:32:43 GMT 1
Rik wrote: Yep, labels do indeed imo get in the way of good riding and horsemanship, but I'm not sure that good riding or horsemanship is that difficult to identify. Isn't it a bit like quality - difficult to explain, but obvious when seen? And yes, anyone who receives money to teach others to ride has to expect questions and challenges. However, tearing down 'riding icons' from the past seems to be a popular blood sport at the moment, which seems a little harsh considering they cannot speak for themselves any longer, and none of us have the benefit of seeing any of them actually working a horse!
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Rik
Elementary Poster
Posts: 62
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Post by Rik on Jul 28, 2011 0:00:13 GMT 1
First of all you have to define what Horsemanship is before you can identify it and that’s the point, people have a different opinion on what horsemanship is, for example.
You want to get a horse in an outline/on the bit/on the aids or however you want to describe it.
One person might use a double bridle to do this in an hour, a couple of days, a week etc
Another just uses a snaffle and takes 3-6 months to obtain the same result.
Both end up with the same result, but one has built a relationship such that the horse wants to go the extra mile for them, some will see the second as horsemanship the first as a shortcut, others a different route to the same end.
One of Nuno’s Students Dominique Barbier says that modern horsemanship is all about technique and has lost an important something all the great riders had, even if they didn’t know they possessed it.
The Riding Icons of the past don’t take any criticism today in comparison to that received in their time by their peers who saw them train, observed their horses, in some cases rode their horses and importantly wrote about it in great detail.
You can’t just order them on Amazon but you’ll find out more about these horsemen in these contemporary texts if can access them than you will in books about them written by people who were born long after they were dead.
Anyway it’s an endless discussion as everything depends on what is important to a person and that is not the same for everyone.
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Derek Clark
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 28, 2011 8:52:45 GMT 1
Rik said:
Hi Rik,
I find myself agreeing with the vast majority of what you post... no exception here ;D.
I'd also like to add that I think one can learn as much if not more by reading contemporary texts that disagree with what one already believes as by just sticking to one flavour. You obviously have a deep knowledge of what I would call 'Germanic' flavour riding literature whereas my own journey has taken me more deeply into original French texts.
I spend most of my study time now exploring the German approach to life, however, as I find this only helps me do a better job of what I have already learned...
Absolutely! ;D So, for every quote extolling the virtues of one master or another there will be another denouncing him. A skilled trainer can get a horse to do just about anything in response to any aid he or she chooses...
For me, 'good horsemanship' is a journey, not a destination...
Best wishes,
Derek
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Rik
Elementary Poster
Posts: 62
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Post by Rik on Jul 29, 2011 22:59:54 GMT 1
I don’t really know a huge amount about the Germanic schools compared to the French and their derivatives, I’m not that interested myself, or even in the French schools anymore.
If you are interested in criticism of Baucher the best is from his students and their students and iirc his son talks of a flaw or two.
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Post by crinklesb on Jul 30, 2011 14:52:18 GMT 1
I 100% agree. The trainer at our yard uses Classical Training and it is amazing. I am a total convert. I think the best thing about it is that we teach everything on the ground before we ride it and it really gives the horse a chance to work out where his feet are and to get real muscle definition and atheleticism without a rider on board messing things up. I'd agree with your comment on the basics taking a long time and then you are just flying! We can now do all inhand moves in walk and trot (walk, halt, shoulder in, counter SI, pirouette and turn on the forehand). We had a clinic at our yard last weekend and we started teaching my boy Piaffe inhand. By the end of Saturday my RI had got one out of him and by the end of Sunday so had I!!. It was the most amazing feeling watching my big (17.2) IDX dancing infront of me....probably my proudest moment ever in my horsey life. Now we need to master it ridden which my RI tells me is the most amazing feeling you will ever have (not sure what hubby would think about that!) What I also love is that any horse can do it. At our clinic we had my boy Bob, a 16hh 4yr old racehorse just off the track, a 14.2 cob, a 14hh nappy little Appaloosa mare and a 17hh Clydesdale cross. All can do the moves and all are fantastic. As far as I'm concerned it is the only way to train and like you all I really should get out there and show everyone our moves. A nice Piaffe would shock the Riding Club cronnies!! If anyone lives in or around the Scottish Borders there are more clinics being run in Aug and Sept www.bowhill-stables.co.uk
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