Rik
Elementary Poster
Posts: 62
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Post by Rik on Jul 11, 2011 19:44:37 GMT 1
Imo there should be no focus on Classical or not, Riding is either good or bad the genre is irrelevant. Exactly the point of this thread Rik. Not sure if you have followed previous discussions on here, but there has been some leanings towards classical = good and competition = bad. Many of us on here follow classical teachings (and I agree that there is good and bad in classical, it's a very widely-used term!) and I just thought it might be interesting to some to know that the terms classical and competition, when referred to dressage, need not be mutually exclusive. That's all. Your points are very valid and have indeed been raised here before in many other discussions. No, I have not seen them I don’t come on here very often I just came looking to see if there was any information on Bartabas’s new Zingaro show. I think there are two issues when talking about Classical Riding, the first is Classical doesn’t mean any specific way of riding and at the same time it covers many specific styles of riding, it’s not a term that specifically means something although that is the way it’s commonly used which is problematic. For example Baucher is one of the most important horsemen in history, not because he is the very best but because of his influence, not only do peole generally not know how horse’s were rode before him, they don’t know they were ridden differently such was his influence. A small example of the paradox or complexity of Classical Riding is the Rolkur, Fracious Baucher is the father of Rolkur, it is an invention of Classical Riding. Up to half the riders in the SRS, The Portuguese School of Equestrian Art, Royal Andalusian School of Equestrian Art, Académie du spectacle équestre etc can be seen riding behind the vertical. Of course BTV is not the same as Rolkur but the commonly held view is neither are part of Classical Riding. The second is now Classical is in vogue, as NH used to be a few years ago the same old conflict/tensions are around, NH is great so if you’re not doing it your bad, Classical is great, Dressage is bad. In both cases the benefit to the horse has been lost to some degree as people become entrenched defending their genre even if it’s wrong, sadly it’s human nature. But if the methods/techniques were just presented as good riding would we be able to get past these arguments? Anyway no new stuff about Bartabas on here yet and I’ve been running on By the way Baucher used draw reins in a pretty bad way in conjunction with a special snaffle bit iirc.
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Post by annabelle h on Jul 11, 2011 21:04:36 GMT 1
Lol can anyone else hear Derek's keyboard warming up? :-)
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Post by jennyb on Jul 11, 2011 21:08:36 GMT 1
Clackety clack, clackety clack... I have never seen Andrew Day advocate riding in draw reins, nor seen him advocate being tough on a horse. I'm not disputing what you saw, simply putting across that he's never been like that when I have seen him.
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Derek Clark
Grand Prix Poster
Olympic Poster
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 11, 2011 21:12:35 GMT 1
Hi Annabelle, nice one, Lol! ;D I'm laughing so much I can hardly type... ... and so here's a picture of the guy who DID actually invent Rolkur - the German, Paul Plinzner. www.flautodolce.eu/plinzner.htmRik - welcome to the board, I'm enjoying reading your posts. I'm interested in your comment about Baucher and draw reins. That's not something I've heard or read about but that's no reason to suppose it didn't happen. Can you point me to a source? Best wishes, Derek
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annie
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 245
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Post by annie on Jul 11, 2011 23:21:15 GMT 1
I have never seen Andrew Day advocate riding in draw reins, nor seen him advocate being tough on a horse. I'm not disputing what you saw, simply putting across that he's never been like that when I have seen him. The thing is Jenny, your horse has already got good schooling established. The young horse that reared with him was a very newly backed four year old which belonged to a friend of mine and I went with her to the local riding school where Andrew was teaching that day. The horse was ridden by my friend's young daughter who was clearly out of her depth with him. Andrew hopped on and was bullying the horse from the word go. The horse was frightened - it was plain to see. The fellow livery who rides in draw reins, I have to say is not a competent rider. Her horse is lovely but is not used to schooling. She gets frustrated with him not going in 'an outline' and Andrew advised to use draw reins. I'm now sure that he (like lots of other instructors) just likes a quick fix. I have also seen him ride and he has harsh hands. If he is with the TTT organisation then it's no wonder most instructors these days are ****.
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Post by jennyb on Jul 12, 2011 0:19:37 GMT 1
The thing is Jenny, your horse has already got good schooling established. Not really - I did take him to Andrew when he was very green. Anyway, sorry that you have seen another side to him, that surprises me as he has a good name around here.
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Post by dublindancer on Jul 12, 2011 8:06:53 GMT 1
I actually liked reading the bit on andrew day, I wonder how long ago your thinking of annie. I say as I used to see him teach and compete 10yrs ago and didnt much like him then. I thought him very hard on the horses and certainly not classical. Iv also known him get on a sensitive tb in a double and get hold of it ' he needs to learn to accept the bit' The tb went vertical soon as he got on and didnt accept it.
But I think its VERY nice that a pro at his level from what iv heard, not just from what jenny has said, has improved and becoming kinder and more classical in his riding and teaching. I hope that is true, nice thought wish more would
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Post by lisap on Jul 12, 2011 8:55:56 GMT 1
It's refreshing to have more people making the point that good riding is what it is all about regardless of genre.
The riders that many of us most admire generally have one thing in common. They are excellent horsemen/women. Monty Roberts is himself an excellent example of that fact.
These riders may not be technically perfect - and their riding position may not always be the ideal either - but they have wonderful seats and superb hands.
I always remember watching Harvey Smith back in the 70's. He wasn't the most streamlined of riders, even then, and you could probably pick a lot of faults with his jumping position, but by golly that man had the most wonderful hands on a horse. He may have looked like a bruiser, but his hands were those of an artist.
In those hands, draw reins would become an aid instead of a weapon of war. My own trainer could use draw reins to 'show' a horse where they needed to be, and the horse would not suffer a jot. (He never uses them btw, but would, on occasion, suggest something like a de gogue to a very competent rider).
My argument is that too few of us are skilled enough, or good enough riders to use these extremely severe pieces of kit in a way that helps the horse instead of inadvertently punishing it.
However, and controversially, I'm sure, many horse owners punish their horses on a daily basis in complete innocence by banging around on their horses' backs, flapping at their mouths and gripping, clinging and bouncing. If you gave horses a choice of being ridden in draw reins by a beautiful rider, or being banged about by an unbalanced and incompetent rider then I wonder what they'd say?
(And I make this point in the full knowledge that my own riding will never be in the same league as someone like Heather Moffett, but by heavens I've worked darned hard for it to be as good as I can possibly make it!)
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annie
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 245
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Post by annie on Jul 12, 2011 9:09:51 GMT 1
But I think its VERY nice that a pro at his level from what iv heard, not just from what jenny has said, has improved and becoming kinder and more classical in his riding and teaching. I hope that is true, nice thought wish more would Oh don't get me wrong. I'm all for giving anyone a second chance in the hope that they have made progress. A friend had Richard Maxwell out and I was having a chat to him over coffee. He said some of the things he did early on in his career now make him cringe. We've all got to learn. It was about 8 years ago when I witnessed the thrashing of the horse at a local riding school. Since then I seem to be the only one with my opinion of him. But he is still advising using draw reins and my fellow livery is using them on his advise. I don't know whether she has misinterpreted his instructions on how to use them. I've heard people say they are useful when used properly but I see her using them for up to an hour with her horse's head pinned to his chest and not a relaxing stretch to be seen. I'm just saying that I regularly see his liveries and presumably his students at local shows and their horses are all overbent and held with hard hands. But hey they do well at dressage so that's all that matters.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2011 10:06:56 GMT 1
My argument is that too few of us are skilled enough, or good enough riders to use these extremely severe pieces of kit in a way that helps the horse instead of inadvertently punishing it. I agree, and I think that's why most of us think of training aids and cringe
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Rik
Elementary Poster
Posts: 62
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Post by Rik on Jul 12, 2011 12:37:07 GMT 1
Err, the flexions of Baucher Rolker is based on was widely in use by the French Cavalry after being adopted following the trials of Baucher’s methods by the Cavalry at the instruction of the French Government (Earned Baucher a nice little pension/allowance from the French Government for services to France) before Paul Plinzner was born, they had been in print long before the trials. Can't see how Paul Plinzner is responsible for it. Iirc the reference to draw reins is in “Herr Baucher und seine Künste - Ein ernstes Wort an Deutschlands Reiter” by Louis Seeger but I may be mistaken it may be another book.
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Derek Clark
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Olympic Poster
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Post by Derek Clark on Jul 12, 2011 15:00:37 GMT 1
Hi Rik, Thanks for your reply and the citation. I haven't read that famous work yet so I'll go and check it out (and I won't hold it against you if it's not in that book - it'll be an interesting read anyway ;D) While I agree, of course, that Baucher was around before Plinzner and that the sketches of his early work do show horses behind the vertical, where I would have to absolutely disagree is that there is anything at all in common between the flexions and the practice of rolkur. As I'm sure you will be aware, the flexions are intended to produce relaxation and decontraction and are performed with an emphasis on the 'give' rather than the 'take'. Rolkur, on the other hand, is a deliberate attempt to constrain the horse with an emphasis very much on the 'take' (which is now officially sanctioned so long as it's not held for longer than 10 minutes... ). The supposed benefits quoted are either a) in the modern day, to cause a lifting of the back due to tension in the nuchal and supraspinal ligaments or b) as it was done by Plinzner, to make the horse easier to manage by mechanical means of domination and thereby to increase the confidence of a one-handed emperor... Either way, they have as much in common as chalk and cheese, unless the flexions are done by using force which is not at all how Baucher taught according to the string of French masters who had the pleasure of taking lessons with him or his direct students. The difference in the methods leads to very different development of the balance - as can be seen by looking at the very different arrangements of the hind quarters and hooves in the sketch you posted and the one I linked to... Anyway, I guess I should apologise for hijacking this thread at this point and suggest we start a new one if discussing further...? Best wishes, Derek
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Post by mandal on Jul 12, 2011 15:07:08 GMT 1
It's refreshing to have more people making the point that good riding is what it is all about regardless of genre. This is what is important imo. I can't join in the technicalities of this discussion, but it's very interesting. As always I'm trying to tease out the priciples that make riding 'good' or at least be something with minimal negative impact on the horse.
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Post by holi on Jul 12, 2011 16:54:15 GMT 1
For me the importance is the softness, suppleness and willingness of the horse. Riding should not be ugly and forced as can be seen by both competition riders and followers of classical methods. The skill lies in patience - to develop both the horse and yourself to the best of your abilities without resort to force or in worse cases, violent methods. That creates the harmonious picture and in the past having been one of the classical is good people, I now believe that is what is important.
How one acheives this lies in personal skills, ability and the bottom line - your ethical and moral beliefs on how horses should be treated. For me its about not using them for my own end gain which sadly, I think is the case in many competitors or disciples - its the journey.
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Rik
Elementary Poster
Posts: 62
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Post by Rik on Jul 12, 2011 18:25:26 GMT 1
One last post
Derek I hate to disagree with you but I don’t think you can compare the photo and the drawing, one is stationary the other is moving, if the photo and drawing were of sufficient quality we could look at where the horse has and doesn’t have muscle to give an idea as to how it was ridden.
Baucher was very harsh with his horses in his early work to the point where some of his methods were battles, some of the flexions of his early work are about take, dominance and submission not relaxation and suppleness only once the spirit was broken the focus could change.
His later work changed after his accident which he never fully recovered from, he was no longer able to fight the horse in the way he did in his early work so developed new methods which he is remembered more for today.
There were plenty of Bauchers peers who were far from impressed with his methods, for example.
Of course they can not be taken at face value as there are many factors going on in the background, including political.
Personally I feel the best of Baucher can be found in Captain Louis Edward Nolan and James Fillis (Arguably the greatest horseman to have ever lived) works, Bauchers works on their own are flawed.
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