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Post by leogeorge on Dec 23, 2010 13:52:29 GMT 1
The same people who say you shouldn't use a dually or rope halter when doing CT often seem to have no problem doing so when their horse has a bit in its mouth, or whip in their hand, and that strikes me as rather inconsistent.
Not all the people who say you shouldn't use a Dually with CT, then go out and use bits and whips with it (I don't!), and I agree, it is inconsistant of those who do.
One of the more disappointing things I read on a clicker forum once was someone asking for help because they had to lead their horse to the field in a dually for safety reasons, whilst deploring the use of the dually the purists had no immediate helpful advice to give at all.
This is absolute rubbish Yann. What was said was, use a dually if you need to, just don't add the clicker to it!
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Post by mandal on Dec 23, 2010 14:08:26 GMT 1
Hi Julie! Actually, I seem to remember reading similar stuff as Yann describes, one of the reasons I get so frustrated with some of the CT Forums. For a positve approach, a lot of negativity and comdemnation of other beliefs is expoused at times as well as assumptions that because you don't believe CT is the 'best' approach you must be rough and ready. I don't dislike CT and infact I believe it has a huge amount to offer. What I do object to is the thinking and insistance by some that it is the 'best' way. To me it is the most 'effective' way to train but it isn't necessarily the 'best'. The best to me is what's right for that particular horse in it's particular circumstances. This can involve a variety of approaches over a period of time all working towards the horse being well in mind and body, confident and feeling safe. I have also been made to feel that I have to choose between CT and other approaches... I don't like having to choose and be restricted to one belief system I'm afraid and I don't believe I am alone. Having emapathy with horses has nothing to do with theory it's a state of mind!
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Bay Mare
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Post by Bay Mare on Dec 23, 2010 14:24:15 GMT 1
The action of a Dually (used on the schooling rings) is always using far more pressure than I am comfortable with, it also, in my opinion doesn't release quickly enough (even in the hands of the professionals). The bit depends on the hands holding the reins, you don't have to pull or yank. The whip can be used with a touch, it doesn't have to be a smack. The action of the Dually is heavy -R. The action of the bit or whip can be light or it can be heavy -R. They can all be used as a punishment in the wrong hands.
I'm always surprised when people are so against something just because it's from a scientific perspective (or maybe there are other issues?). Lots of 'scientists' are also horse people. Many clicker trainers are both scientists and horse people. It's not about far removed experiments in laboratories, it's about applying the science of learning theory to practical application.
Putting it simply:
+R = adding something (eg a treat) to a situation to make it more likely to happen in the future
eg. My horse stands when I ask him so I give him a treat (in clicker you would use a click to mark the desired behaviour and follow that with a treat)
-R = taking something away (eg pressure) from a situation to make it more likely to happen in the future
eg. You apply pressur to the horse's chest to ask him to back up, he wants to escape the pressure and backs up so you take that pressure away. He's more likely to back up in the future when you press on his chest (avoidance/escape learning)
+P = adding something (eg a smack) to the situation to make it less likely to happen in the future
eg. Your horse nips at you so you smack him on the face. Theoretically (although it doesn't always work in practise!) he will stop nipping at you to avoid being smacked
-P = taking something away (eg your attention) from a situation to make it less likely to happen in the future
eg. Your horse searches you for treats. You ignore him and only give him a treat when he stops mugging you. He soon learns that he doesn't get treats when he mugs.
That's basic learning theory, it's science, it's also common sense!
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Bay Mare
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Post by Bay Mare on Dec 23, 2010 14:33:52 GMT 1
Not all the people who say you shouldn't use a Dually with CT, then go out and use bits and whips with it (I don't!), and I agree, it is inconsistant of those who do. But Julie, you and your friends on PEP have a well documented history of vehemently disagreeing with riding with bits. You (the general 'you') absolutely refuse to accept that it's possible to ride without causing pain or distress. You (again the general 'you') will also not accept that bitless can cause as much discomfort to the horse as bits. It's strange that Becky Holden uses clicker training as part of her classical in hand and ridden training yet the horses that she works with are all quite happy to work for her. No resentment, no issues. With that, and with Yann AND Julie on this thread I'm bowing out!
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Post by mandal on Dec 23, 2010 15:07:21 GMT 1
I'm always surprised when people are so against something just because it's from a scientific perspective (or maybe there are other issues?). Where is it written that anyone is against science? An assumption. Science should be objective and without emotion. I am just trying to explain that my personal priority is empathy rather than science, I certainly do not dismiss science and I actually do use it! lol I feel the same way about bits as you feel about the dually, add to it a curb and two reins and how gentle do 'those hands' have to be? For me if hands are not good enough for a dually they are not good enough for a bit, add to that the fact the human is riding (usually) so balance becomes critical as well as 'feel'. No need to be rude about Yann or Julie imo.
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Post by Catrin on Dec 23, 2010 15:50:27 GMT 1
Why does it all go pear-shaped. Yann put forward a very reasoned and reasonable answer to the question. I was interested in Bay Mare's replies as she was an IH member who also knew a lot about CT then suddenly we get the 1-post-trolls who disrupt rational argument.
I hope it hasn't put the OP off. You can combine IH — even the Dually — and clicker training. I've done it very successfully for seven years, you just have to know what you're doing. Don't let the theorists whose view is one-sided tell you otherwise. After all, you can't do anything at all with a horse without using R-, apart from keep it in the wild and the wild uses very little R+
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lassiesuca
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Post by lassiesuca on Dec 23, 2010 17:12:16 GMT 1
I get a little tired and fed up with this whole; ''Don't say this, you're a troll'' malarky; this is a public forum ( okay admittedly an IH one) but people can join for free- therefore controversial and opposing views are going to be seen. Deal with it. Anyway, I think we can ALL say we're pretty guilty of it. How many people ( I know that most people on this thread in fact); will have seen the Parelli video with Catwalk and Linda Parelli with the partial sighted horse. I would argue that was to me, pretty much abusing our rights as horsemen. Therefore I'm going to say that! What if someone sees the use of a Dually/Pressure Halters etc as a breach of our beliefs? We all have beliefs and we all have the right to say that! If you disagree, we disagree- if you don't, you don't. One member said about not using treats as it's not a good idea- fair enough, but the minute something negative is said about the Dually; it's a different story in context almost! It may be my lack of experience and perhaps I'm naive and am missing the point here; but when you believe in something- of course you want to share it? Nobody on this thread is 'forcing' their views down the next persons throat- we're all hiding behind our computer screens and there is only so much one can say- doesn't mean that it should influence us greatly. Through integrity and our own capability of making decision, we can rationalize the benefits, the disadvantages and then go on from there- making a logical and of course; ethical choice of horsemanship to go down. I also agree that different things work for different people and horses; there are different branches of clicker trainers. I've got Alex K's book and got Ben Hart's book for Christmas ( I was very naughty and snuck it out of under the tree and have started reading it, but that's another issue ) and already just from his introduction he does stress that there is never one set answer or one set rule, I really like what he said in his first chapter though; ''The truth is that no part of horsemanship can be considered in isolation and clicker training is still subject to the science and laws of learning and behaviour. Just because a trainer uses a clicker, the other rules and laws of behaviour and training are not abandoned.''I think this is where the labels start getting stuck on people, particularly us who solely use clicker training; it's something that is used alongside other ideas. But like everything; sometimes two things don't go hand in hand and we have to make the decision what we want to do. For example- we can't use positive reinforcement with tugging, pulling, kicking etc- like said before- it becomes a poisoned cue and the effect wears off- also the fun of horse training is bled dry and our horses souls and characters are fluttered away. This is where we have to use our brains you see ;D. I am a fan of Heather Moffett and the work she does. Enlightened Equitation is simple, straightforward, and most importantly for me, rational. It makes sense; this is also why I'm a clicker trainer, because I understand the reasoning behind it. It's encouraged me to look at my pony in a different way and begin to develop compassion and also to become more inquisitive. If anyone is on the equi-click forum, you'll be familiar with all the questions which I ask, I always question things- even in clicker training; that certainly doesn't mean I want to tarnish it! I've made a few observations on here too; that sometimes people will post a thread about people complaining about ''traditional'' methods- I have and still do. When you develop a more 'enlightening' mind, and when you begin to understand things a lot more; it naturally becomes a lot more infuriating- doesn't it? We ALL get angry and we all don't understand people's logics. People ( I'm not going to search back through threads, as I'm rather enjoying my book at the moment!), but people do have a slight inclination to wish that people followed the IH methods... that people don't understand and others get mocked... So shall we stop pointing the finger before we all end up looking like uber hypocrites ( I know I am right now); but I'm stressing the point we're all as bad. If we see something we don't like, why SHOULD we keep open and say 'Well...' I am not going to name and shame; but I've had negative experiences with an RA; I have a youngster and she came out to help me, first of all we tackled join up. Except it ended up with my pony freaking out and nearly breaking his legs because he jumped over a 4ft fence, he wouldn't let anyone near him, and was shaking. Yet equally my friend joins up with her Arab and has had positive experiences- but still keeps open and I'm now helping her embark on her clicker journey. I used to ride at a riding school, before I got my pony, for 7 years. Before enough was enough. I've inherited my skeptical and perhaps pessimistic nature from my Dad, who likes to question everything. I was for a long time; extremely naive and aimlessly would do things', ''Just because I was told too'' and giving a horse a slap on the bum seemed somewhat the norm. It also seemed apparent that if you didn't compete- you weren't ''in the club''. What I'm trying to get at, is that we all point the finger. We all have experienced bad things- I have experienced some pretty dim things in the past. I've been down the route of aim at the jump and go, and if your horse stops he must be being naughty. We are all on here, I'm sure- wanting the best for our horses. We all are trying to become better horse people. I think that it's unfair to say that clicker trainers are close minded. I still sometimes read my Perfect 'Partners' and 'Manners' books, to get some inspiration for a shaping plan. I read Klaus Ferdinand Hempflings work, despite it being different to clicker training ideas. We all have the right to say if we agree or disagree. We are all open to healthy debate, we should be. But when people start getting singled out, then it's not funny. We're always going to take offence when someone starts slating what we believe in, just as most people do. It hurts, and we all have feelings, more so to the point when you strongly believe in what you do; sometimes comments do appear frustrating. Nobody is telling the OP what she SHOULD/MUST/MUSN'T do, nobody is saying each other is right or wrong- we're sharing personal experiences and BM has every single right to express her negative experiences, we're all entitled to know! It helps us to make our decisions and take other people's opinions into account- it's then up to the OP whether or not they want to take Path A or Path B, C, D, E, F, G. As horse trainers, it's so easy to say- 'Oh, each to their own, it's their horse, let them do what they like', but when we're responsible for another being's welfare etc, we have the right to express our opinions. If a parent is seen neglecting their child- whether it is through a form of violence, negligence, or if they treat their child unfairly- people GET involved. Our horses don't get the choice as to whether they are clicker trained or trained with pressure/release. They don't get a voice- not really, so if we see a horse's rights being violated, why can't we say something? Are we not allowed to? I don't know if that made any sense, I really went on one Amy
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lassiesuca
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Post by lassiesuca on Dec 23, 2010 17:36:48 GMT 1
I also wanted to add, in regards to the comments about science, If we relied to much on the science and accepted it- then there wouldn't be all these fascinating discussions, we wouldn't be constantly questioning things and we would have dull, lifeless and unhappy horses!
What we have; are horses with a voice ( metaphorically!), choices and we don't aimlessly apply clicker.
I also think that whilst our learning theory does follow a scientific basis- we ALL apply science to our everyday understanding of things. For example;
At school, they use positive reinforcement ( my German teacher used chocolate- a great success with me!), and they apply punishment. The theories all work; they all follow learning theory- but are manipulated depending on the individual.
We all on here follow similar beliefs- yet we have to adapt our work to suit our horses individual needs, right? Therefore we are using a logical basis to help develop firm foundations, these principles can be applied to working with almost any animal in the world, but still variations lie with how we approach it. Like Alex Kurland says in her book- clicker training is 'piggybacked' onto other methods- so I know JVT follows Mary Wanless's ideas, whereas Lynne, myself and I'm sure others follow Heather Moffett's ideas at EE, but even within that, we still variate between it.
A lot of the IH philosophies and principles are based upon scientific research. Monty used heart rate monitors to measure a horses pulse rate. They do scientific studies on the Dually apparently, using pressure tests and comparing BPM's.
When we feed our horses; we are following science- nutrition, digestion- the role of enzymes, the horses gut etc.
Vets follow a pretty scientific regime when treating horses for issues- yet I wonder how many people say ''You're treating my horse based on science, he's not a robot'', yet the vets started off with the textbooks, the basic ideas and the principles of science- ( i.e you need a Chemistry and Biology A-Level) and my friend from a forum is a vet student and the first 3 years was basically theory. Yet nobody has an issue with that!
We don't stand there with our text books and follow it step by step, like I said earlier we manipulate things- following the foundations of learning theory etc!
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Post by mandal on Dec 23, 2010 17:42:56 GMT 1
Point taken Catrin.
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sixfootblonde
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Post by sixfootblonde on Dec 23, 2010 18:53:59 GMT 1
I think you would have to be careful about using it with a nippy/bargy pony. I am sure it could work, but you would have to be very structured and disciplined in how you did it. I am not sure that sort of pony would be a good candidate for you to learn clicker with. I would take advice from a clicker expert about using it with that pony if I were you. That is exactly what I used to think Caroline. My main horse was nippy etc. Then about 5 years ago I saw Ben Hart working at a demo of Lucinda McAlpine's. I had never seen Ben before and was really impressed. I also did not rate CT at that time either, especially using treats. Ben took one of Lucinda's really nippy, nibbly, bargy, rude little ponies, who had been treated from food in pockets. In 30 minutes, using CT and treats, this pony learnt how to behave beautifully and all existing behaviour vanished. This was the demo that completely changed my thinking about CT. I understand all CT's do things a bit differently, and I have not looked far beyond Ben Hart as it works so well for me and my horses, and I have got some dominant and nibbly horses. I work a lot without the clicker too and if I am not wearing the CT bumbag the horses know that we are not doing CT today. When I was trying to get Betty used to a hose and being bathed, I tried approach and retreat initially. I had done about 3-4 sessions and was not getting any closer to getting water on her. Then I got the CT out and within 10-15 mins she was happy to have the hose spraying all over her including her face. Brilliant tool, one of many, but an excellent addition to the horse training toolbox.
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Dec 23, 2010 19:45:04 GMT 1
Oh I agree totally sixfootblonde - clicker could be great with this horse. What concerned me is that the OP sounds like she is new to clicker, so I was concerned she might get herself in a mess with a nippy pony whilst she is learning the theory and developing her own timing. I have no doubt Ben or a more experienced clicker trainer could get very rapid results with a nippy/bargy pony.)
I would think the best advice I could give to the OP is to be sure to use a bumbag and not pockets for treats so the horse knows when clicker games/training is available and when it isn't. I constantly violate that rule myself, but I can see how it is one to very strictly observe with a nippy pony.
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Post by Yann on Dec 23, 2010 21:58:05 GMT 1
The dually can be used lightly just like any other piece of equipment. The reason some people see a conflict in using any equipment that can potentially apply a lot of pressure when clicker training is that it potentially changes the horse's perception of the situation and their motivation. I think it's more a case of people objecting to being lectured about it and beaten over the head with it The list of reinforcers and punishers you have recited there also happens to be in the back of Perfect Manners. Of course science describes the world around us, but I think it's important not to let theory get in the way of empathy and intuition (or even safety) when doing stuff with horses. I don't think there's any problem with controversial and opposing views here, not if people are posting politely and in good faith. Discussion is good. However I do think pigeonholing ourselves as being in one camp or another is rather limiting, I think horsemanship is a personal thing, it's not about proving whose 'gang' is best.
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lassiesuca
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Post by lassiesuca on Dec 23, 2010 22:04:25 GMT 1
But I don't SEE it in this debate, Yann?
It's discussion, therefore bias views are going to be put across- at no point has someone said...
''You MUST clicker train''
''You MUSN'T use a Dually''
People have said their own views on it, hardly pigeon holing is it now?
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lassiesuca
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Post by lassiesuca on Dec 23, 2010 22:06:23 GMT 1
''I think horsemanship is a personal thing,''
To quote again;
Isn't that what everyone has said, given a personal experience.... negative and positive experiences with the Dually....
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Post by ghostrider on Dec 24, 2010 0:17:17 GMT 1
Thanks for the replies. As a yearling he was hand fed treats by other liveries without my knowledge which went on for a while and when I found out I was livid aswell as very upset as he had become extremely nippy and bargy despite me never having fed him a single treat from my own hand and to this day I still haven't. He's 3 1/2 now and over the years I've used IH groundwork/ methods with him, even worked with an RA but he is still nippy when your around him and bargy in the field, he is especially nip happy with strangers and of course I can't IH train every person he comes into contact with so I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle in a way. I just wondered whether using clicker training I could maybe improve his behaviour, I'm quite prepared to be extremely sharp on timing and rewards just I'm kind of getting to a loss and I intend for him to one day be a child's pony and biting and children aren't a good mix! Hi, I would agree with the others who have said it probably isn't wise to start learning about clicker training by trying to solve a problem - and this seems to be a pretty ingrained problem. That's not to try to put you off clicker training or to say that clicker training may not be helpful, but just to say that it would be worth taking time to do a bit of reading, ideally getting to see someone who is already a competent clicker trainer, and trying to teach some of the basic behaviours (targeting, no mugging etc) on a pony without so many 'issues' around food. When horses are learning 'no mugging' they quite often go through what is technically called an 'extinction burst' - what it means is the horse is going to try very hard to get the treats off you (because he has been fed treats for nothing previously) before giving up. You may see quite a lot of frustration and even aggression (hence the importance of working behind a barrier to begin with) and it's important to know how to respond to the horse. Your timing must be spot on as well - a few mis-timed clicks and the horse could think he is being rewarded for moving his nose towards you - creating even more confusion and the potential for other difficulties. I think it is also important to have a look at the horse's motivation for this nippy/bargy behaviour. If he hasn't been hand fed treats since a yearling, but is still nipping, it's important to try to figure out why - and to make sure that there is no possibility he is still being fed treats, or handled in a way that would provoke nippy or bargy behaviour. Understanding the reasons behind the horse's actions is often half the battle. Good luck.
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