LEGAL questions for Ask the Experts

[Kelly Marks]

Thought we should have a legal section for the next Listening Post for members to ask questions. One that comes to mind is how do you stand in a court of law if you ride bitless or don't lead down the road in a bridle (something we were asked the other day)

We've all got opinions and many people think the know the answer but perhaps it's timewe should get some qualified answers!

Anything else you'd like answered if I'm talking to a specialist horse lawyer?

[bertie666]

If stopped by an rspca officer and told it is illegal to ride barefoot do they have any actual power over you?! and what can you do educate them? This happened recently to a friend!

[jackiedo]

I think I know what you mean Bertie.... (horse barefoot... not rider) It's not illegal, but I have seen ponies ridden almost until they have no hoof left up and down the roads that were clearly in pain, which is not the same as a managed barefoot system, but a welfare issue

[IHOffice]

This letter was sent to the office this morning. Alison gave me permission to post it here:

People seem to believe that if an accident case went to court a Dually user would be found negligent because it is not conventional: the accepted way to lead is in a bridle. This is because our legal system is based partly around caselaw (what happened in earlier cases) but also around convention (what do we perceive as normal/what is the accepted way?). It is fuelled by the British Horse Society and The Pony Club which teach that the bridle is the only way (despite the lack of two-way control), but also probably because nobody has challenged it in the wider forum.

As a lawyer, though not a litigator, I think so long as we have the support of IH and Monty and somebody is willing to stand up (in court as a witness if necessary) and give evidence relating to the safety and efficacy of the Dually, thereby challenging the traditional (outdated) view that a bridle is the only way, then that should be sufficient to defend its use. Predictably, not one of the people who has commented to me has ever actually used a Dually or seen one in action before. I think somehow we have to reach the mainstream equestrian scene, perhaps through the BHS, British Eventing, British Dressage, BSJA etc, or, maybe more effective, the horsey press (Your Horse, Horse, Horse & Hound, Eventing etc) which have a large readership who are keen to learn. That way we (you!) could at least open their minds to the fact that there are other safe ways of doing things.

A neighbour of mine has trained with the Parellis and she leads out in a rope halter and even rides in one. I know people chide her for it. I will ask her what the Parelli stance is. I have emailed the BHS to ask what the position is insurance-wise and will let you know what they say. I wonder if this issue is worth raising through The Listening Post to see what other members have experienced and how they are handling it?

Monty’s and IH’s teachings are great but how many new people do you reach each year? How many people attending courses or roadshows are sceptics versus those who are already advocates? I know my boyfriend and I first went to see Monty expecting a bit of a circus act which might be quite entertaining, if mildly educational, but basically a show…we came out totally converted and have had lessons from IH Recommended Associates to increase our understanding and hone our skills. Now we go because we love to see the Master at work and learn more, but does that mean we are taking seats that might otherwise be taken by a potential new convert?

Anyway, enough rambling. I plan to continue to do what I think best – i.e. use the Dually – because I have thought about it and not just unquestioningly followed the traditional path, and deal with the consequences should there ever be a problem.

[lauranash]

How do you stand if your horse kicks / bites a dog when you are riding it? Specifically farm dogs that come out to bother you when you are on a public highway (the dogs don't actually attack the horses, just make a lot of noise and run about). Luckily mine's a saint with dogs, but we've got a newbie on the yard whose obviously had some bad experiences and I can see it happening soon. If the other horses aren't bothered and this one is then does that imply fault with the horses owner (i.e. they should have de-sensitised their horse)? Or should the farmer have his dogs under control either way?

Also, same question with cows, sheep and hens (again if they are loose on the road, or in the case of cows and sheep are being herded down the road).

Would also be interested if it makes any difference if you had deliberately gone up to the junction where the cows are herded past, up to the loose hens etc, in order to do some de-sensitising.

[welly]

Re the bitless bridle - the BHS issued a statement saying that bitless riders are covered under their insurance policy. Although if you were involved in an accident the other side's lawyers would try anything to win their case.

As far as the barefoot and RSPCA is concerned, if the horse is not lame then what is the problem?
There are lots of ponies being ridden without shoes who have never heard of "barefoot."

[hmt]

When riding my young horse on the road, wearing a reflective tabard stating “Caution Young Horse” or words to that effect could this affect liability in an accident as I have already admitted my horse might not be experienced in traffic? (I currently resort to shouting “sorry, he’s only young” as we piaffe sideways past scary things)

[amarche]

Loan agreements - we all tend to use the draft BHS ones but how legally binding is it? Where do the loaner/loanee stand if things aren't going to plan?


might not be an easy question though to answer lol, would be good to know if it's advisable to actually have a 'proper' loan agreement drawn up though

[annabelle h]

I'd be interested to know how many instructors have been successfully sued for negligence in, say, the last 5 years, and whether they did something a responsible horse person would consider truly negligent, as opposed to a technicality.

(I am insured btw, would just like to know the facts behind the hype from insurnace cos!)

Also how is the liability situation likely to change in future, eg with proposed Health and Safety reforms.

Thank you, A x

[jinglejoys]

We were talking rope halters/hackamores the other day and quite a few said they felt safer than with a bit,in fact one girl said that due to past problems her horse was unsafe in a bit.
I know I feel safer with Malaga in a rope hackamore yet I ride Picasso in a Myler combination which I am very careful about using the reins.I'd prefer not to use a bit at all with him but my BHS type schooling blocks my brain when I worry about insurance.Malaga was started in a rope halter and one rein and progressed to the hackamore and I know I can stop him with it.Funny how our brains play tricks on us.
AS for barefoot!!!!!!Let an RSPCA mini SS officer tell me my boys must wear shoes!!!!! I'll turn him upside down and stick tacs in his feet!!I think if Pacco has lived to his age shoeless he should know more about it than some puffed up "0fficer" in a fancy uniform!

[hch4971]

Jun 28, 2010 13:01:47 GMT 1 lauranash said:

How do you stand if your horse kicks / bites a dog when you are riding it? Specifically farm dogs that come out to bother you when you are on a public highway (the dogs don't actually attack the horses, just make a lot of noise and run about). Luckily mine's a saint with dogs, but we've got a newbie on the yard whose obviously had some bad experiences and I can see it happening soon. If the other horses aren't bothered and this one is then does that imply fault with the horses owner (i.e. they should have de-sensitised their horse)? Or should the farmer have his dogs under control either way?

Also, same question with cows, sheep and hens (again if they are loose on the road, or in the case of cows and sheep are being herded down the road).

Would also be interested if it makes any difference if you had deliberately gone up to the junction where the cows are herded past, up to the loose hens etc, in order to do some de-sensitising.

Much of the case law around horses looks at whether the horse behaved in a way the handler/owner could have expected, ie natural behaviour, and if so then they should have taken measures to prevent the behaviour

If a dog was on a lead and walking quietly past a horse and got kicked then the dog owners were being responsible and may attempt to to take legal action - if you said the horse had never kicked a dog before then that couldn't have been expected and I doubt they would have a case.

If the dog was loose/not in control and was jumping around the horse and got kicked then the dog owner would be guilty of failing to keep the dog under control and would be liable.

Same with cows and hens, if the horse kicked a cow that came too close or stamped on a hen but had never done it before then how could you expect it to happen.........complicated stuff this law!

[dptc]

A question I come across often is can a yard owner keep my horse if I owe money! I work at a firm of solicitors and have been asked that on a few occasions!! Not just from the owners of horses but also from yard owners who are finding out if they can keep the horse until payment is made