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Post by mandal on Dec 30, 2009 21:15:30 GMT 1
Feet hocks and ulcers have become my mantra for behavioural problems that are not sorted by good handling etc. Its amazing how many horses are lame when you block one leg out! Even the bare foot ones. Not that I deal with any horses but my own but sore feet is one of the things that I think is often overlooked... thrush (deep central sulcus infection), LGL, underdeveloped feet etc. ;D Sorry had to get that bit in!  I hope OP doesn't mind peppertop as I agree this is very educational for many of us, thankyou all for sharing your experiences and knowledge.  |
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Post by greyanbay on Dec 30, 2009 21:45:06 GMT 1
no not at all all very interesting!!
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Post by peppertop on Dec 30, 2009 22:29:38 GMT 1
Yes that was it, Doxycycline. i just couldn't remember it earlier. Should be able to, have opened enough packets of the stuff!
Ok, from the pics I would say there is definaely something physical going on somewhere. As a 4 year old he is muscled better than as a 6 year old. He looks like he has the makings of a strapping horse but his topline is weak in the later pics. I know he has been ill, but I would expect him to put the topline on very quickly if he was totally comfortable. To be honest I have horses that have put it on just being in a field. You can tell by the way he is in the ridden pic that he working correctly so he should have put that topline on easily. I have looked at the vid of him too and I think he is landing toe first, which could indicate a problem. There is something about his muscles and the way he looks in your pic of him loose on the hill that makes me think this maybe a problem behind. His neck and shoulders look strained but that maybe just the picture
I hope you don't mind but I have emailed the pics to my trainer who is fab with these things and asked for her view.
Is it a trimmer that does him or a farrier. Can't really tell by the pics really but are his heels on his back feet higher than they were as a 4 year old?
Think I'm coming back at you with more questions than answers here!
What make saddle is he wearing? Is this recent behaiour just ridden or in hand too. Is he more stressed in his stable?
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Post by peppertop on Dec 30, 2009 22:36:21 GMT 1
Mm totally agree Mandal, so many horses are lame with problems in their feet. Its ok tho, coz you can just stick a shoe over it and it goes away :-D
The difficulty is that feet and hock problems often go hand in hand, so you end up with a horse lame in 4 legs. It can take some serious investigation to find the problem. Often it is not until nerve blocks are performed that it becomes clear the horse is lame. The problem is usually getting a vet onside who will take on board that there is a physical prob and not the horse being a git(as I was once told by a major newmarket vet!)
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Trouble
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Post by Trouble on Dec 30, 2009 22:46:05 GMT 1
Ooh....one question at a time! it's getting late...ok...
He's less muscled this year than as a 4 year old but that's because he's pretty much had the year off, bit of ridiing here there and everywhere, but nothing that would contribute to fitness. The 4 year old pic of him was after a good summer of work so he was really quite fit.
No, don't mind at all who gets any pics, I' needing all the help I can get! All i ask is that people accept that I am doing the very best i can with a difficult situation and don't attack me for not being spot on first time! lol
Not sure about his heels and the difference, When I got him he did have slightly collapsed heels (very slight) and long, pigeon toes - always been done by a farrier - my current farrier has been working to improve them after my previous farrier seemed to lose interest and let me down/didn't do the best job for a few of months.
Current farrier is V into barefoot trimming and has done quite a lot of training, though is not a 'trimmer' or qualified as such.
He's never been a particularly heel first mover, but the toe first thing seems to always coincide with him closing up his movement (in his shoulders) which has always coincided with the ulcers/this time of year. When he moves properly (for him) he is quite flat footed in his foot landings. But he is naturally very lazy with his movements and will drag a toe if you let him slop along.
Saddle is an Ideal, was made to his template and fitted by Mark Fisher. I get it checked approx 6 monthly. Previously I had a Thorowgood Dressgae saddle, but his shoulders exploded outwards and he outgrew it!
The recent behaviour is ridden only. In past times when we've had problems he's been difficult to handle, difficult in his stable, branded as dangerous, and bad to ride....currently he is turned out/brought in/generally handled by a nervous friend who is under 5' tall...and his manners are impeccable with her, so much so she comments on it daily! He used to rear and pace inside is stable, now he is relaxed enough that he does one neat pile of poos, and always has a lie down at night.
He had one stressed night in his stable on bonfire night (but I preempted that and gave him a shot of Gastrogard) and another when a new mare was moved into the neighbouring stable - again I gave him Gastrogard just in case.
Other than that he is a real Mr Chill in his stable, and has even begun to cope with being brought in first some days (used to be impossible) and having others turned out before him (that was a real nono before as it would traumatise him for the rest of the day if just one horse was taken out of his sight!)
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Trouble
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Post by Trouble on Dec 30, 2009 22:49:35 GMT 1
And ref your second post - my vet is very open minded and has said he'll try anything i ask him to...he's a die hard traditionalist in some ways but has been very interested in the success of the alternative therapies I've been using. So if it did seem necessary to nerve block/investigate further then he would go a,long with it. He has said in the past that not horse is bad without a good reason.
My insurance money for the ulcers is now finished, but I have just had a new job/promotion with a salary rise that does allow me to do some of this without the support of insurance, whereas money has been a real stumbling bock for me in the past, I can happily say that is not going to be the case after 31st Jan!!
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Trouble
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Post by Trouble on Dec 30, 2009 22:52:49 GMT 1
Is this any help with his movement at all? www.youtube.com/user/JB100d#p/a/u/0/ytsgdGWJh88This was taken in May this year, and was one of the first 'good' sessions we had after the ulcers cleared up, and we moved yards....he's not moving as well as he could, he's still being very careful with himself, and is also unfit and back on his forehand so not the best representation... |
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Post by peppertop on Dec 30, 2009 23:21:00 GMT 1
Ok, i think what I would be doing is getting him scoped to be sure about the state of his stomach. Although his ridden behaviour has deterioated it seems everything else hasn't.
I thin you need to know where you are with that so you know for absolutley sure that his stomach is part of the problem. Otherwise you could end up paying out to treat him for something that isn't the problem. One problem at a time and all that!
Then I would have a full lameness investigation done and nerve blocks to see if there is a change in his movement. It is so difficult to know if the lack of heel landing is coming from him being tight in his stomach or the stomach is tightening because of the way he is moving. Chicken and egg thing!
I know you say he was very fit as a 4 year old and isn't this year, but he doesn't just look unfit to me. Believe me, at the moment I have lots of unfit horses in my field and they still have topline(too much time onhere and not enough riding!!) There is something about his stance that looks different and the tight look on his face.
If he is insured for lameness stuff still, I would send him to Cambridge. Thats not to say your vet isn't great( its great you have found a supportive one) I just find in complicated cases that thy often end up being referred anyway and by that time half of your insurance is used up, doing the same tests the big hospitals will do again for themselves. They also have the access to Mri, bone scanning and such like, so can often get to the problem quicker.
Sorry I'm just throwing this back at you as I think! I don't want to worry you, but I guess you are there already! I do feel with all the time effort and money you have put it that things should be going better for you by now and maybe its time to pass it on to the "big boys" as such! Sometimes going to a completely new vet is great as they look at the horse totally unbiased by history or us. I think if they went through his history of behaviour any decent vet would investiagate him for pain.
My trainer has just come back to me and her gut instinct is a problem behind. She's a bit wierd like that, we call her the witch! In the nicest possible way obviously! She's asked me a few questions so I'll put up what else she comes back with.
I'm using the late excuse now for my spelling!!
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Trouble
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Post by Trouble on Dec 30, 2009 23:34:57 GMT 1
I spoke to my vet earlier this week, we're both reluctant to scope again, I've had so many scopes done this hyear and snip finds them very traumatic - he is very food obsessed and finds the starvation period more than he can handle, and he tends to get nosebleeds from the actual scoping.
We have such a library of scopes videos that show ulcers, and those that are clear, and I can match them all to different behaviours so clearly, that i KNOW there are ulcers. The vet has seen the video clips that Liz took and agrees.
What I don't know is what is causing them. Earlier in the year we did the lameness work ups, kissing spines, foot conformation, hocks/legs, eye sight, hearing, sinuses(!?) liver and kidney - to name a few...theree were others but if I'm honest I'd have to dig out the reports to remember what exactly.
He's had a Thermography session, that showed nothing unusual.
He's had so many professionals for various things, that I'm sort f reluctant to do the whole lot again, at least until I know the ulcers are gone. When they are gone, he has no problems at all. Lovely and loose and lovely movement (if a little lazy at times!)
Gut feeling for me is clear up the ulcers, and then take another look. I think the only thing that I can get my head round possibly being an issue is something to do with his hocks maybe - and that's based only on the fact that he sometimes does the foot snatch thing with his hind legs (both equally) and that he can be a lazy sod with his back end when asked for work - but then when asked to do it, he does with no problem.
I see so many horses with horrendous conformational faults, that have no issues from it, I find it hard to believe that he could be so affected when others aren't. But I'm not going to rule it out.
It's funny you say that his face looked tighter though, because everyone who knows him says his face is so much softer these days than it used to be!!
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Post by peppertop on Dec 30, 2009 23:49:00 GMT 1
Mm looking at that clip I would say his movement definately doesn't look right to me. He looks like he's landing toe first and definately dragging the right hind toe. I'm not keen on the way he holds his tail. Bless him, I'm really tearing him to shreds! I do think though that he looks like he should be a big mover and is a big handsome horse that doesn't quite look like he's fitting his potential.
I really don't believe horses hang onto the past about pain. They live in the present. Of all the ones that I've dealt with, with ulcer probs, within a month they are changed animals and have not reverted back to old behaviour. Even the ones that have had them for years. Its so difficult when something isn't clear cut.. "blinking" horses!
Ha, I didn't realise it did that when you swear! I could do with that in real life!
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Post by peppertop on Dec 30, 2009 23:59:45 GMT 1
I can udersatnd your reluctance to go through everything again. It sounds like a good plan to go with the ulcers first and eliminate them. Like you say though, then you need to find what is causing them to reappear
All I would say is I don't believe horses can be lazy either, sorry I am the word police! Stiff sore, crooked but not lazy. When he is moving does he toe tap? By that I mean, does his foot bounce on the ground before putting it down? Not just a drag but a tap. I can't see it clearly enough on the clips
This and the lack of engagement from behind could be an indicator of hind suspensory problems. Gait analysis has been used to pick up toe tapping and many that do it have gone on to have high suspensory problems.
Just a point about the reliability of thermography. We had a horse done and it showed nothing up really. He then had investigations and xrays and had significant side bone, navicular in all 4 feet and hock probs. It was done in the same week!
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Post by mandal on Dec 31, 2009 0:08:29 GMT 1
Sorry to keep butting in but re the navicular, side bone etc. please everyone borrow or buy Pete Ramey's DVD series 'Under the horse'!!! The importance of foals and young horses developing strong structures in the feet is imo of paramount importance for the future soundness. See the Charity section or check out this link. www.hoofrehab.com/underthehorse.htm |
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Trouble
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Post by Trouble on Dec 31, 2009 0:21:01 GMT 1
Navicular was another we looked at. No he doesn't tap his toe down, more of a scuff, there's never any wear on the front of the hoof wall so he's not dragging it really toe first, it's the underside he drags. See that's just it, he's been proved over and over that he's not stiff or sore in any obvious places, and in most not so obvious places. If I'd not been through it all, I'd be getting him to the vet ASAP....but we have and it shows nothing and we treat the ulcers, and he does become the big mover again. That last vid clip really isn't a good one to show for his ability to be a big mover - that was taken really early on after a bout of ulcers. Actually, annoyingly, I don't think I have any recent pics of him moving properly. I wouldn't say he's returned to form at all this year, he's a big gangly horse who has always needed to be fit to be in control of his limbs, I've not managed to ride him for long enough periods of time to get that fitness. Been having a scout through his pics - what would your comments be for this one (PLEASE ignore the fact i appear to be yanking his teeth out, I'm not normally that heavy handed, this was our first competition and nerves got the better of me and he outperformed me by a mile!!)  and here ignore that fact I've dropped my reins and forgotten how to ride...  *sigh* and ignore me looking down in this one. Honestly my horse is far better than i am!!  Thanks for all the input tonight, i really am taking it all in, all on borard, and don't intend to just do nothing...you're seeing things in the pics that i don't so I'm trying to show as many as I can from different time periods, when ii can remember his behaviour and ulcer status!! |
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Post by peppertop on Dec 31, 2009 0:22:18 GMT 1
Butting in is good Mandal!! I totally agree Pete rameys stuff is really interesting. Also a little scary when you consider how badly european horses are raised in terms of movement and ones over here obviously!
I know of someone who keeps her youngstock stabled much of the time or in small pens, wierdly they tend to be lame as young as 2! One "needed" remedial shoeing as a 3 year old!
Having seen how many horses are actually lame in their feet, I think we should all be made to read and watch this stuff
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Post by peppertop on Dec 31, 2009 0:32:54 GMT 1
Only one pic came up, was there meant to be more?
In the one that is there, I would say he still looks like landing toe first, but its hard to see as his feet are same colour as surface! his stride length looks better though, but his face looks tight. Does he have a big overtrack whn he moves? He looks a bit like he would track up well, perhaps too much instead of using all the joints in the hind leg correctly. Going back for a look at the vid!
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