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Post by sandy on Dec 29, 2009 20:17:25 GMT 1
Sorry, but I would never want to produce a test like that. When I see a horse moving like that - I feel so sad for the animal - their natural grace and beauty is taken from them - very sad.
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Post by portiabuzz on Dec 29, 2009 20:21:06 GMT 1
i aspire to ride bareback & bridleless, with both horse and rider in happy & harmony....for me the opposite of this
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Post by lisap on Dec 30, 2009 0:28:57 GMT 1
I would also like to add that if many 'ordinary' riders were given the opportunities that riders like Gal and the other 'top' riders have, then most of us would be far, far better riders than we are now. After all, they get to ride with the best trainers, on the most talented horses, and often spend several hours a day in the saddle. Put any of us in that situation and we would all improve dramatically! Also, most of us are riding less than perfectly put together horses, which are generally less than perfectly educated. Put some of these 'top' riders on our day to day neddies and they may not look quite so wonderful either..... Given these fantastic opportunities, it is disappointing that so many of these riders are not interested in learning how to train a horse without recourse to gadgets and techniques that force a horse into submission and outline. Just think how wonderful Totilas would be if he had been trained in one of the classical schools and encouraged to work through his back.
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Post by portiabuzz on Dec 30, 2009 0:29:48 GMT 1
well said x
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Post by 2 bays & a grey:D on Dec 30, 2009 8:47:59 GMT 1
I agree with most of the DGer's, the horse is truly beautiful but you can see the tension in his back and tail, and his neck is wound so tight!! there doesn't seem to be any fluidity through his body. I am no expert and lets face it I am not riding at the moment but I have learned what looks like a relaxed horse and what doesn't, and this doesn't. Has any one read 'Tug of War' Classical v's Modern dressage? Can't remember the author but its a real insight into the difference between a leg mover and a fully relaxed horse working to the best of their ability. It has taught me a lot about how a horse uses its back and the importance of strengthening the back, in turn being able to use the rest of his body properly, and not using gadgets to achieve this!! Now back to my dreamy imaginantion- My ultimate goal is to have my horse doing beautiful dressage bareback and bridleless but quite frankly I don't think I will ever have the skill to achieve that so i will stick with being able to acheive 'on the bit' in a bitless ;D, and showjump in a bitless. But hey ho, one step at a time, lets just aim for being able to have a decent schooling session without being hurled through the air
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Post by donnalex on Dec 30, 2009 10:09:22 GMT 1
Ok so some of you really don't like the way the horse has been produced, and yes i would like to see it more relaxed, but......it was still damned well riden, I could ride day in and day out for the rest of my life and still not produce a test that well and if we're being honest....how many of us can?? The answer to that is - none who have posted so far, including me. When the day comes that a horse works as well as that with all the dancing and movement and it is soft and more classical in its carriage and it is bitless or bareback and so on then people will sit up and listen and try to emulate. The trouble with the dressage split (classical v competitive) is that none of the people who are any good at the classical want to compete. People who are into classical have often looked at alternatives because they are not competitive enough to want to win no matter what. At the level this pair are competing there has to be some sacrifices and not just for the horses part. People working at this level dont have anything else they are so driven, often their families never see them or even want to as they are so obsessed and put competing before their other commitments including their children if they have any. With that in mind they are not going to let a few details stop them. I actually dont think it is possible to work that calibre of stallion to that extent of movement, collection, extension and sheer power in an explosive setting as a massive nternational televised competition arena without a saddle and a bit without the stallion having lapses of control where they would lose points, maybe even total control. And to train an animal to that level without a bridle would take so long they would still be in the training arena at home when arthritis and old age were setting in for both horse and rider. Personally I dont think that people who bang on about going bare back and bitless and keep trying to compare them are helping the horse world to come around to more classical dressage, they are slowing the swing towards classical down by appearing to be nutty as a fruit loop. Classical does not = bitless or tackless. As for comparing Totilas and his rider to others at their level I think he is definitely the best out there in the competitive world at the moment. His tongue is not blue or even visible, his tail is not going around like a helicopter, he IS a stallion too remember. To get the collection, pirouettes and extensions without more tension IS amazing lets be honest. Dont forget he will work with less tension at home, as they all will. This rider is a lot nearer to classical than a lot out on the dressage scene. I suggest people who are criticising heavily post a vid of their work so we can compare.
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Post by jennyb on Dec 30, 2009 11:00:46 GMT 1
I do agree with you Donnalex that Totilas does give a nice test for a GP horse. He is a heck of a lot calmer than most, and to say that he can be ridden on a long rein in a prize giving and stay calm is pretty good. However, he IS trained deep and round at the very least, one only has to do a quick internet search to find photo and video evidence of that. I personally do not like that style of training and I don't think there is a need for it.
I am not riding to that level, but it doesn't mean that I am not educated, intelligent and knowledgable, and capable of forming an opinion! I spent eight blissful hours within the Winter Riding School at the SRS in Vienna in September and witnessed riding to a higher level than that (GP plus the airs) with happy horses complete with swinging backs and the odd mistake to prove that they are not "Obedience Machines".
Donnalex - there are classical riders competing at GP. Rafael Soto famously won silver at the Olympics with Invasor a few years ago, the Cadre Noir regularly send their members to the Olympics in all disciplines, and they are just the ones which spring to mind. I think though, that the judging standards have gone so awry that you could not simply turn up to a GP competition with a classically trained horse and wipe the floor like Alois Podhajsky used to. I believe that even Rafael Soto had to tinker with Invasor for competition, even though he was already trained to high school.
I saw Soto and Invasor do their display at the four schools show in Paris in 07. Invasor is just amazing, Soto was fooling around and playing up to the crowd (as usual!) and Invasor just stayed perfectly calm and in control throughout. Soto left the arena in walk on a long rein, cheering and waving his arms around, and Invasor just plodded out with a look in his face as if to say "God, you are SO embarrassing!!" ;D
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Post by mollymoo on Dec 30, 2009 11:53:53 GMT 1
I totally agree with Donnalex's comments.
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Post by mandal on Dec 30, 2009 12:08:41 GMT 1
I agree with much you say Donnalex but I do think fashion has a lot to do with it as well as people being 'driven'. Where the fashion comes from I'm not sure though, is it because this is what top riders are producing has now become the standard? So ever more extreme movement is needed to better a score rather than 'correctness' or lightness? I go on about things we see becoming 'normal' so our eyes become less objective and I'm sure to some extent this happens in Dressage and other competitive circles and even in our own back yards! I'm a total numpty and know little about dressage but I do think I know when a horse is relaxed and not stressed and I do not think that I should not be able to comment about what I see because I'm not much of a rider. This to me is how the horse world becomes so insular and set in it's ways, the opinions of those not 'in' are considered of no consequence so you end up with with a closed clique with one way of seeing things. I suggest people who are criticizing heavily post a vid of their work so we can compare. LOL!!! I might produce a slapstick vid, that's if I can stay on board! Modified with spell check!
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Post by juliecrussell on Dec 30, 2009 14:35:38 GMT 1
Apologies, this is long, but the tenor of this thread concerns me somewhat. Ok, as someone who was actually there when he rode this test, let me fill you in a bit.............. First, it was absolutely BOILING that day - all the horses were sweating like billy-o, as was I, annd that was just from walking round the shops! Second, the video starts at the start of the test - but he entered the arena in passage on a fairly loose rein and the more the crowd cheered, the bigger Totilas' passage got - he absolutely ' loved it and was revving himself up without being 'held into it' by Edward. Yes, he gets worked deep and round (this, though, is different from Rollkur, so be careful) but apart from Mistral Horjis (Laura Bechtolsheimer's horse) this is the most relaxed horse I have ever seen at Grand Prix. Without being too 'fluffy' about it, I tend to get very strong 'feelings' from horses I am near and all I got from him was joy and excitement. Also, I do want to ask people how they expect there to be no muscle tension in an animal performing incredibly athletic moves - please ask any human olympic athlete how their body feels when they are competing - they might be mentally relaxed, but their muscles will be bunching and pushing, creating huge force to achieve their goals - it doesn't mean they're stressed though! Finally, when the test was complete, Edward literally dropped the reins and threw his hands in the air, the stadium went wild, everyone stood up, stamped their feet, the lot and Totillas looked round as if to say 'my fan club, excellent!' he strolled out as if he owned the place. For any of you who've ever ridden a stressed, upset horse, do you really believe it would relax that quickly afterwards? There were some other riders there (who shall remain nameless) whose riding I found very uncomfortable to watch - but Edward Gal seemed, to me, to show tact and trust in his horse. Overall, I suppose what I'm saying is that, sometimes, a video doesn't really show you the truth, or all of the available evidence. Please make the effort and go to see him compete in person - I challenge you to see if you still hold the same opinion afterwards. Fianlly, to those people who suggest Grand Prix dressage would be better bitless/no saddle etc - a) where are you all then - why aren't you organising lots of these competitions to show how much better you are? and b) as long as humans ride horses, there will be the ptoential for, and the occurrence of, abuse. Removing bit and bridle will just mean people turn to other means. It's not the equipment, it's how you use it. There endeth my diatribe!
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Post by 2 bays & a grey:D on Dec 30, 2009 14:49:52 GMT 1
I don't want to ride grand prix, thats why I choose (or will choose) to ride bitless, thats my opinion and I am sticking to it ;D
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Silversons
Grand Prix Poster
Holgado II
Posts: 1,568
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Post by Silversons on Dec 30, 2009 15:07:43 GMT 1
Thankyou Julie I was starting to think I was watching different footage to everyone else........ I am not the rider I would like to be, but will do whatever I can with in reason and not at the expence of my horse to be the best rider I can.
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Post by K8 on Dec 30, 2009 15:10:56 GMT 1
I am not the rider I would like to be, but will do whatever I can with in reason and not at the expence of my horse to be the best rider I can. I don't think anyone here would disagree with that.. I certainly agree with you.
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Caroline
Grand Prix Poster
Intermediate Poster
Posts: 2,277
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Post by Caroline on Dec 30, 2009 15:18:49 GMT 1
There seems to be a line of logic here that says only Grand Prix level dressage riders are qualified to have an opinion on whether this type of dressage is something to aspire to.
I disagree. Even a person who has never sat on a horse is entitled to decide for themselves what they wish to aspire to.
I am not an expert bareback rider, although I have done some and aspire to more. I have a friend who is fantastic at it though. The day I saw her ride a beautiful dressage-style test on a black arab stallion, with no saddle or bridle - was the day I started on my journey into horse whispering and all that has followed. If it wasn't for this amazing girl and her beautiful dancing stallion, I wouldn't be here right now. I might still think mainstream horsemanship was the thing to be doing.
Another friend used to ride her cob bareback in the forest every day. They had been together for nearly 20 years, he had pulled her gypsy wagon and they lived together in a field. Although less showy than the the tack-free arab stallion dressage, it was just as beautiful to see woman and horse float of into the forest together to enjoy a ride with nothing more than a head collar and sometimes a sheepskin fleece. The partnership was inspiring and so lovely to see. She would tell me that it wasn't always plain sailing and even married couples have arguments, but I still think fondly of that and aspire to that kind of ridden relationship - a consensual, mutually agreeable, life-partnership.
There are people out there doing these things. It seems quite common for this type of beautiful horsemanship to go hand-in-hand with a desire not to compete. So the competition ring is not the place to find them.
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Post by happyhacker on Dec 30, 2009 15:20:50 GMT 1
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