Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Dec 15, 2009 14:52:46 GMT 1
No wendy - it's just an observation based on experience. I work extensively with rescue dogs and haven't yet seen a MBP case. If people do have a problem with a rescue dog, it tends to get resolved in the first few months and thereafter there are no problems. On the other hand, we seem to see an endless stream of horse problems on this board alone.
I am not sure there has even been any research into MBP and horse owners - but we all recognise it when we see it.
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Post by rosemaryhannah on Dec 15, 2009 15:53:34 GMT 1
There is certainly a lot in transference - I know a person who has a number of horses, and very very little money. If she is feeling especially insecure she acquires another, leaving little over for her family. If she is even more insecure, the horses are kept stabled 24/7 - although they are never neglected, and always clean fed and watered. But at huge cost. I fear one day one more will tip her over the edge.
But I do understand the urge to rescue, and the urge to have the high of a new animal - having often had it myself.
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ruby
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Post by ruby on Dec 15, 2009 17:51:06 GMT 1
An interesting question that has stumped me over the years. I think a distinction needs to be drawn between those (who I hope are in the majority) keep a horse or horses where the payback is clearly obvious and those for whom ownership doesn’t seem to bring any immediate benefits and only detrimental effects to the animal involved. For the former, the reward can come through the excitement and challenge of competition through to the enjoyment of simply caring for such an interesting and complex animal. This board and all the others like it show what an absorbing hobby it can be with so many facets of husbandry and behaviour to learn about and so many disciplines to compete in. For the latter I don’t believe there is one simple answer. From my own experience, three examples immediately spring to mind, one where I am convinced mental illness played a part, where the owner genuinely believed they loved their animals, had the facilities, knowledge and ability to care for them but many aspects of their care were sadly lacking. In this case I believe there were control issues involved, with animals being frequently kept shut in their stables, food and bedding rationed or insisting that other, to our minds completely irrational, practices were followed.
In the second case I feel it allowed the owner to talk of their horse, buy her expensive rugs and tack and tell everyone how much they loved their horse. Whereas although the horse had its basic needs met (food, water, clean stable), in actual fact they spent the minimal amount of time possible with them, the horses routine fitted around her life rather than vice versa (that seems to happen so frequently for the rest of us!), didn’t ride, didn’t groom, simply seemed to pour money down the drain for no enjoyment. Here there may have been an element of status symbol, but I hesitate to use the word status, I think it was maybe to do with how they wanted to be perceived, as a horsewoman, and to be able to join that group of ‘horsey people’...maybe a need to belong or fit in?
The third was another MBP-type of scenario with the horse constantly having one illness/injury or another that we could witness little sign of. I think this behaviour was both attention-seeking and again about wanting to be perceived in a particular way, the horsewoman expertly caring for the sick horse. Maybe there is a need to feel needed in this case too.
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Post by lawyerbunny on Dec 15, 2009 22:12:29 GMT 1
Fascinating thread!
I think there is certainly a desire amongst some owners (of all animals but horses in particular) to be needed. I wonder whether there is quite a difference here to be found between men and women, and it's women who tend to behave in such ways.
Women are extremely good at binding their emotions up with all kinds of things - food, shoes, interior decorating (for heaven's sake!) - even our relationship with a slice of cake can be complex and fraught. There's every reason in the world why we would tend to make our psychological relationships with horses just as convoluted and bound up with our self-esteem. Aside from a 'need to be needed', horse are literally 'big' things to have in your life, and huge creators of work - physical and mental - to pay the bills and feed and water. I'm rather drawn towards the view that part of the attraction for some is the sense of purpose/busy-ness/importance and thereby self-esteem that comes from the work involved.
When it gets too much, or the horses get too many, I can, I think, see how people draw down the shutters and fail to see it. It's perfectly possible to treat yourself in that way, carrying on a course of behaviour that's physically damaging, quite oblivous to it happening.
I absolutely agree, too, that there are people for whom having a "problem" animal, whether in terms of its behaviour or health is almost a desirable thing of and in itself. I rather feel that too fits with the greater self-esteem to be drawn from being 'the only one that understands/would listen' rather than a genuine objective desire to help the animal. Please don't construe that as suggesting that everyone who tries to help an animal, or for that matter person, in need is somehow doing it for their own selfish ends - and there's nothing wrong at all with feeling good about making a difference! - but I do really feel that sometimes an owner's needs can outshadow the animal's.
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Post by franklyn on Dec 15, 2009 22:57:45 GMT 1
I think that a person 'reasoning' for neglecting their horse to the point of it becoming a cruelty case will vary to much to become a feasible project.
But i fully agree with Arabmania comments in that people in this situation simply can not see what they are doing, and refuse to accept they are doing anything wrong.
You do see cases where people argue they feed and water their horse everyday (the food is often so old it has gain Artificial Intelligent and the water look like it has come from an Irish Bog) the fact the horse has missed a few worming sessions is OK, and the horse feet have become over grown to the point of curling up is not a problem as the horse can still walk and so on.
I also agree with all the comments which say a lot of these cases only become a real problem when people either get a horse for the wrong reason (such a bit of 'BLING' to show friends) or they fail to understand the level of responsibility and commitment they have made.
Part of human nature is that there are some who want help but don't know how to ask, Other think by asking for help will be seen as a weakness of sorts. When things do go bad panic sets in like 'How can I ask for help at this late stage' etc, this can then lead to denial. Which leads to the problem getting worse as the person becomes further out of their depth.
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Post by amberhoney on Dec 15, 2009 23:55:01 GMT 1
My Mare was a rescue, the previous owner was at the same yard as me, a teenage girl, the mare had always been jumpy but one afternoon i caught the girl hitting her around the head with a headcoller because she was "naughty to catch", during a discussion with her mum it came to light that she was basically bored of her but liked "having a horse"she had asspirations of being a fantastic show jumper which the mare was but the girl didn't put the time in and was over horsed so no results. seems this had been going on a long time but she had been careful no one saw until i was there unexpectedly.
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Post by wendyihts on Dec 15, 2009 23:57:45 GMT 1
Hmm, so now I'm going to risk being controversial and unpopular. Hey ho... I have some strong convictions on this subject so time to stand up for them! With the kindest possible sentiments, the reaction to this thread underline the initial point I tried to make. We all like to speculate and ruminate on the possible reasons for other people's behaviour and that leads us to particular judgements. But, whilst it may be relatively harmless on such a forum, for people involved in rescue/welfare it could be damaging for all concerned to start jumping to conclusions about the psychological or emotional problems underlying someone's behaviour. I would liken this to the welfare people trying to take over the job of a vet or a doctor. I'm sure they don't - and with good reason! We shouldn't be trying to make any kind of diagnoses, however informally, but we should know some 'first aid', the main signs of general distress, how to be most helpful within the restrictions of our understanding, and when/how to call in skilled help. We should even try to avoid making judgements or fitting people into categories because, even with the best intentions, it can make matters worse. So if you're in a rescue/welfare situation, please leave the judgements about what might be 'wrong' with someone to the skilled mental health professionals. If you want to develop your helping skills generally for these situations, do a basic counselling course. More than anything, a counselling course can help people understand what should be the limits of their involvement and how to avoid making a situation worse.
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Post by sarahbing on Dec 16, 2009 14:39:32 GMT 1
Thats not contraversial or unpopular Wendy, it's sound sense! In fairness, the Welfare Officer concerned did originally ask Kelly if she knew of any reasearch on this subject, not for all our opinions! I think the reason we all chipped in is because it is a phenomenon many of us have seen, and care about. They are after all, just our opinions, except Catrin who found some genuine research. I do think it is a very interesting question though, and if an answer could be found, many more animals could be protected in the future. After all, the prosecutuon route doesn't seem to act as a deterrent for many people, and is fraught with difficulty, even in clear cut cases of neglect. A new way of thinking about the issues must be positive?
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Post by portiabuzz on Dec 16, 2009 16:02:05 GMT 1
I have met alot of people who have animals (not just horses) because its the 'in' thing & because they believe they should do for 'status symbols', and also those who have lots of money but don't actually care about their welfare or see them as anything more then just a fun toy to be discarded when wanted.
I would love to take more animals but have to remember that i don't have the space or finance to care for them at the moment... some well meaning people want to own lotd of animals but fail to realise they are not being kind if they cant afford to look after them properly, which is sad.
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potto
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Post by potto on Dec 16, 2009 18:59:07 GMT 1
Hmm, so now I'm going to risk being controversial and unpopular. Hey ho... I have some strong convictions on this subject so time to stand up for them! With the kindest possible sentiments, the reaction to this thread underline the initial point I tried to make. We all like to speculate and ruminate on the possible reasons for other people's behaviour and that leads us to particular judgements. But, whilst it may be relatively harmless on such a forum, for people involved in rescue/welfare it could be damaging for all concerned to start jumping to conclusions about the psychological or emotional problems underlying someone's behaviour. I would liken this to the welfare people trying to take over the job of a vet or a doctor. I'm sure they don't - and with good reason! We shouldn't be trying to make any kind of diagnoses, however informally, but we should know some 'first aid', the main signs of general distress, how to be most helpful within the restrictions of our understanding, and when/how to call in skilled help. We should even try to avoid making judgements or fitting people into categories because, even with the best intentions, it can make matters worse. So if you're in a rescue/welfare situation, please leave the judgements about what might be 'wrong' with someone to the skilled mental health professionals. If you want to develop your helping skills generally for these situations, do a basic counselling course. More than anything, a counselling course can help people understand what should be the limits of their involvement and how to avoid making a situation worse. While i agree in some respects with this... and feel that I have been guilty as charged in situations. By getting too involved through emotion and lack of experience in animal neglect cases. However I also have been told that to withdraw help i.e not feed animals in situations and watch them deterioate and possibly die is the quickest way to clamp down on offenders rather than offer them further support and prop them up.....If agencies are monitoring and offering education and advice. However this has not proven effective either... as the animals then just die or struggle from illness to injury, and offenders replace them with new ones? Bodies are removed and postmortems are not performed due to loopholes and ridiculas protocols and finances... I also find that this kind of attitude is what often leads to a community allowing the kind of 'Bystander apathy' that allows this these practices to continue. 'Let the professionals deal with it' Unfortunately unless things are made uncomfortable somewhere along the line for people, change dosen't happen.... and it usually takes a majority of people to enforce change for a minority... and that includes taking on the views of the little people.. While some of us may not be qualified to make mental health judgements.. It may be the case that some of us are able to suspect, it maybe that some of us have actually worked in counselling and abuse settings before. Maybe not. However if you live in a community and have knowledge of the family, history, witnessed incidents ... is this really relevent? At the end of the day you have a horse who 'dosen't lie and is all the evidence you need' Sadly.... the professionals or people in the know often let these communities down. Vets refuse to confirm or deny for fear of practices getting a reputation and if the other Agencies rely on their advice or a post mortem that only happens if the owner of the horse allows it and pays and then the body goes missing.... you have nothing.... and history just keeps repeating itself... and you grow tired of it all..... and learn to look away from the fields as you drive by... Yes i do in part think that damage can be done by us making too many judgements.. but frankly any discussion is good... this is a hidden problem brushed under the carpet by soooooo many!!! I know there is a massive look at the serious issue of overweight horses and 'minor' abuse issues..... but if someone could come and spend sometime with me Horses are dying this winter..... not humanely..... but because they are starving because of neglect.... or they have no access to water or are overcrowded or have no shelter or are ill and this is not in France or abroad.... this is in our own country and villages and stables and if you don't believe me..... I will show you! I am all for this discussion and any research that comes from it..... i do not disregard your views tho wendyIHTS i think they are valid ones, however i feel so strongly that at the moment horse welfare is falling well below the level of what it should be providing in communities and i don't know if it is the fault of the law, legislations, lack of community support, increase levels of abuse, poor mental health,education, finances or all of the above........ ? But i for one will continue to try and help the ones i see struggling this winter.... Just as i would help anyone who collapsed in the street from a heart attack even tho i am not a doctor or up to date first aider. . . . everyone deserves a chance and if i am the only one on the scene willing to do something about it.... and if it gets up peoples noses.... stuff 'em
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potto
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Post by potto on Dec 17, 2009 0:22:11 GMT 1
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zig
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Post by zig on Dec 17, 2009 21:37:16 GMT 1
I think I may have an idea as I've seen it in action close to home and it is a known condition. When a person makes a purchase they enjoy the buzz or high they get when they actually make the purchase. Once they have the object/animal the high they get (serotonin levels/adrenaline) subsides and they have no further interest in their purchase. I have seen this with clothes, ornaments etc. In addition, I have noticed some people do get extra attention from animal loving friends when they obtain a new animal. Their friends and contacts all want to see the new addition and therefore the owner gets 'attention' and compliments that they wouldn't normally get. Of course, the interest soon dies down and they have to do it all again.
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Post by jaxnbreeze on Dec 18, 2009 0:18:30 GMT 1
Many years ago a woman I knew who was elderly and tiny would only keep large thoroughbred horses who were skittish and towered over her. She maintained are all three of them were unrideable and she was unable to handle them herself from the ground. They were very well looked after but they were always 'ill' eg. colic, lami., pricked soles etc., I think she loved looking after them which she did very well but also enjoyed the kudos of having 'priceless' thoroughbreds (her words). She wore herself out mucking out but never rode. They obviously fulfilled a need for her to be needed but I believe she was frightened to ride any of them and she would rather have died than ride a cob.
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Post by portiabuzz on Dec 18, 2009 12:08:38 GMT 1
each to their own!!
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Caroline
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Post by Caroline on Dec 22, 2009 16:01:30 GMT 1
Well said potto.
In practise, rescue people are over stretched and at their wits end just trying to help the animals. There isn't time for much amateur psychology, so psychologists need not worry that their territory is being encroached on.
Judgements are made about the welfare of animals and decisions and actions are made on that basis. If an animal is healthy and well and receiving appropriate care, there is no problem. If that is not the case, then rescuers concentrate on helping that animal. Natural human compassion can cause them to try and help a human owner in difficulty too and appropriate help for the human is sometimes called.
I probably shouldn't say it, but the attitude I hear from many rescue people is that a lot of people are just horrible/terrible/bad/evil/unprintable. I don't often hear any analysis as to what form that takes or why it might have happened. It's bad enough dealing with the results of what bad owners/people do, without worrying about what led them to do it.
It's interesting that this welfare person who contacted Kelly has shown an interest in the psychology of animal abusers/neglecters. I wonder if it is idle curiosity or whether there could be some research brewing on the subject? Of course, then we must get from research to implementation of practical policy/program, which may be more challenging.
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