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Post by LisaM on Jul 28, 2009 19:04:57 GMT 1
I'm quite convinced that this is away from the UK... defo abroad/US possibly. I watched the whole thing almost in disbelief at what I was seeing. The poor pony really does bleed and it seems all a bit ott for my liking AND unneccessary
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Sam C
Olympic Poster
Posts: 737
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Post by Sam C on Jul 28, 2009 19:09:47 GMT 1
Surely they'd have to sedate at least, which would kinda imply a vet was there with them too? You do need to sedate, though mine were just done with sedalin gel which I had plenty of myself anyway. I imagine some horses would need injecting. I was though given antibiotics which obviously requires a vet. I don't know what the law is but there are a lot of farriers doing resections without vet supervision regardless. But is it any better to let a vet loose on your horse with power tools, who has had half a days worth of training on feet?
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Post by mandal on Jul 29, 2009 10:44:54 GMT 1
Oh surely the horse is sedated!!! I've braved a few more seconds... after cutting most of what sole there is away he then goes on to take a large area of hoof wall away at the front of the foot to 'relieve pressure' and enable 'drainage'!!! I really, really cannot believe this voodoo medicine goes on in the 21st C Mta... I wont apologise for going on about this as I hope peeps will question vets and Farriers if this or similar proceedures are suggested for Laminitis... I know there are other better ways that involve treating the whole horse not just butchering a foot to treat what is a systemic illness!!!!
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Sam C
Olympic Poster
Posts: 737
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Post by Sam C on Jul 29, 2009 13:35:28 GMT 1
after cutting most of what sole there is away he then goes on to take a large area of hoof wall away at the front of the foot to 'relieve pressure' and enable 'drainage' That part is actually fairly common practise here, it's a hoof wall resection and last I heard it's still sometimes used at the Laminitis Clinic, certainly by plenty of vets and farriers around the country. I had less of a problem with this than removing the sole, which is what caused 99% of the pain with mine. It's almost always unnecessary though and a similar effect can be acheived with or without shoes simply by putting a massive bevel on the toe.
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Post by mandal on Jul 29, 2009 14:20:16 GMT 1
Thankyou Sam, I did know that. The problem with taking the hoof wall away especially so drastically is it removes protection from the foot further leaving it open to damage from impact and infection. Also from what I understand the hoof wall grows faster and stronger with stimulation ie. pressure so removing/relieving it like that will slow down new growth to some degree and it puts even more pressure on other structures in the foot. I'm sure you know all this... To harp on about Pete Ramey again in his experience he states has had more success not resecting and as you say beveling and relieving the base of the wall as well as gradually bringing break over back and lowering the heels. At NO point in what I've watched of this is the shape of the foot addressed or even mentioned... the heels are very long by the look of it how is the back of the foot going to get any stimulation??? It just doesn't make sense to me to interfere with what is in effect a sealed structure in these sorts of ways when the problem is basically poisoning or severe metabolic stress... it's a bit like doing brain surgery for septicaemia imo. Omg this is soooo barbaric imo!!! Not content with removing the hoof wall he then dremels away till the lamina start to bleed (he aims to get to an artery ) he then wants it to bleed for 20mins!! I had to stop watching again! I also couldn't bear to see the hoof with NO sole left being put on the hoof stand!!! Resection? That's NOT what I call it!! Btw I'm not normally a squeamish person, this must be perhaps THE most distressing thing I've ever seen.
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Post by wendyihts on Jul 29, 2009 15:33:39 GMT 1
Any rationale given for that?
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Post by mandal on Jul 29, 2009 16:08:42 GMT 1
To reduce pressure!! All the removal of sole and hoof wall is to relieve pressure! He doesn't say specifically why he wants to get to an artery... he seems happy though once blood is flowing out of the hoof which indicates venous bleeding rather than arterial to me. Perhaps you should watch it Wendy, I'm not a scientist or academic (or bright!) for that matter at all, I may well be missing the vital point!! I know about resections etc. for Laminitis but somehow seeing it done just really hits home to me how absolutely pointless it is!
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Post by wendyihts on Jul 29, 2009 16:41:56 GMT 1
I tried to watch it but it's horrible - and like you, I was just thinking 'how completely pointless' and so turned it off. I was just wondering if he'd mentioned why he wanted to hit an artery and why he felt it had to bleed for 20 mins. But it defies logic cos he was going on about how he was doing this procedure because of continual abcessing and then he goes and opens up the hoof capsule radically and exposes more tissue to bacteria. And then the laminitic is going to need pain killers and antibiotics, which is going to do a fat lot of good to his gut.
I've seen a chronically lame pony (chronic laminitic) brought back to soundness within an amazingly short amount of time without the sight of even a pinprick of blood. But his owner keeps him sound by keeping him off grass and keeping his feet the right shape. I've got photos of the trim, pre and post, but no video of it to put up on You Tube unfortunately.
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Post by mandal on Jul 30, 2009 12:10:30 GMT 1
Yes from all I've learned diet is the number1 thing to get right. This fact (fact imo) is the biggest reason for not doing this radical invasive stuff. I know my maisy was comfortable within 3 days by changing her diet. That' thankfully is the only direct experience with acute laminitis I've had but I have read tons of case studies etc. Cutting into the sole he says 'oh good that's an abscess' when it starts bleeding, surely pus would come out if it was an abscess? not just fresh blood. I just keep posting on this in the hope many peeps will look and read.
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Post by cbc on Jul 30, 2009 15:06:57 GMT 1
That was the bit I couldnt understand Mandal, opening up the sole further for what? There didnt seem to be any sign of infection present, then weakening the whole foot further be resectioning the front...I was also wondering what was going on with the other forefoot..... I have a suspicion that the horses recovery as seen later had more to do with the horse than the treatment. Hmmmm....Wasnt convinced with the "fantastic" resin stuff being pumped into the foot either.... I have a suspicion the farrier has got carried away with himself at the expense of the poor horse. Wouldnt let him near anything of mine.
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Amanda Seater
Grand Prix Poster
Listen to your horse you may be surprised what he may tell you about yourself
Posts: 3,866
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Post by Amanda Seater on Jul 31, 2009 10:53:34 GMT 1
I think resectioning is out dated and barbaric.
I had a nightmare last night, about having an argument with a lady that was very PRO this treatment. The argument got very heated and she really slated me and didn't want to do business with me- turns out it was the owner of a yard I wanted to move into and I blew it!!!!. then I woke up.
make what you will of that dream - I believe in standing by what I believe in but .........
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Post by mandal on Jul 31, 2009 11:13:05 GMT 1
Definitely a nightmare Amanda... why would you want to move into a yard with a YO with those sort of views!? Totally speculating here but I wonder if he wants to get an artery to keep the bleeding going for 20 mins. Venous bleeding would stop quicker I imagine? I really don't understand this release of pressure thing especially by 'bleeding' the foot. Also, he proceeds to pump (inject) stuff into the foot, surely that will increase pressure again? Just watched a couple of seconds when he starts the resection again... he states that he wants to switch the drainage that is coming out of the sole to the wall, the front part of the foot!! Surely anything would drain to the lowest point? He also keeps talking about the infection but there is no sign of pus?? After the bleeding for 20mins he paints the thin hoof wall left covering the lamina at the toe with thrush off and then sprays with 'well horse'. He says the bleeding will stop in a minute. the vid then goes to the horse trotting about (not totally sound) which is 8 weeks after this treatment ie. after second shoeing after. I have to assume the front of the foot is left with no protection whatsoever as it doesn't show the proceedure being completed or the horse walking afterwards. He say this is all to get rid of the infection that has been in his hoof for 4 years now (presumably he means the abscesses?) I still wonder where the pus was?? I've watched it all now in bits, still can't watch it in one go, and I find nothing at all of value in it for the horse. There is no mention of holistic measures the emphasis is totally on the hoof being 'infected'!!! I feel sick!!!!!
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Post by mrsfields on Jul 31, 2009 11:54:40 GMT 1
yikes!
i won't watch the video as i am squeamish, but i'm wondering if the theory behind it is like the local "mixed" vet here who was thinking of "bleeding" an acutely laminitic pony here a couple of months ago if there was no improvement by the next day... i put up a thread about it in here somewhere as i was so bemused at the time as i'd never heard of bleeding for laminitis before...
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Post by beany1 on Jul 31, 2009 13:44:17 GMT 1
Hmmm, I think I might drill a few holes in my head to help relieve my pressure headache....... I just can't comment further, it's too bad
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Post by arabmania on Jul 31, 2009 23:49:00 GMT 1
what a load of absolute s***e this video and person goes against every grain beleived. NO harm.... he totally abused the horse NO live sole. he should be named and shamed and sacked on the spot! I'll happily be first in line if anyone can name and shame him?
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