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Post by mandal on Mar 17, 2009 18:11:25 GMT 1
From what I understand most if not all of the BF approaches seem to be aimed at building/developing proper strong structure in the hoof.
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Suz
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ET & VHT practitioner Cranio-sacral Therapist
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Post by Suz on Mar 17, 2009 19:43:00 GMT 1
That was my impression too Mandal. Trim and condition the foot so as to optimize the function of the soft tissue structures within the hoof there by giving the compromised areas the best support possible.
BTW as far as I know Navicular disease is bony changes to the navicular bone whilst navicular syndrome applies to unspecified caudal heel pain. I think I remember this right- should do as my trimmer has explained it to me lots of times( have a mare who was written off with navicular as a companion)
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Post by mandal on Mar 17, 2009 21:20:31 GMT 1
This is an extract from the article on Pete Rameys web site that I linked earlier... Quote
"We’ve known for many years that horses can have serious caudal foot pain and no changes to the navicular bone. We’ve also known for many years that horses can have dramatic changes to the navicular bone, but show no lameness. Dr. Rooney proved and published that it was actually the unnatural toe first movement (usually caused by avoiding heel pain) that causes navicular remodeling; not the other way around as most professionals thought. Understandably, Dr. Rooney is one of the most frustrated people I know of. Thousands of navicular horses have been needlessly destroyed since his groundbreaking research. He was just 40 years ahead of his time.
This lost information goes neatly hand in hand with the newer research from Dr. Bowker. He has studied the back of the equine foot extensively. When a horse is born, all four feet are the same; even microscopically. Their development is incomplete; physical stimulation is supposed to finish the job. " Unquote.
This of course is not the whole story...
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Post by Susan on Mar 17, 2009 23:06:45 GMT 1
I got told navicular syndrome is basically pain in the foot.. and the problems are often folks are scared to hear this believing it is a life sentence to the horse and most often lawn mower or PTS answers. Navicular desease is the arthuritic changes which are shown by xrays and scans after often many nerve blocks. Both I see repairable is caught in time and depending on expectations. The main issue I have come across in many yards are many vets only see the answers they know and not stray out of the box, and the same for many farriers throwing what we would call spare parts surgery to try and find an answer and in that space of time the issue gets worse. I havent seen a horse come truly sound long term with these methods. But as I have explained in my previous post I have seen horses ( One I quote about) come truly sound BF and because like Suz above has said the trimming and methods are about improving the foot to then help itself. But only with the right trained folks in this field.
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Jane
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Post by Jane on Mar 17, 2009 23:26:58 GMT 1
"Thousands of navicular horses have been needlessly destroyed " Yes and my mare was so nearly one of them. The equine vet (he accompanied the Aus team to the Olympics, so not a bad vet!) had the decency to look a little sheepish when I went in to look at her old x-rays and hear his viewpoint. In his defence, there were no barefoot trimmers around here when she had her original diagnosis. It would be great if she could become a positive example.
One interesting point. On the old x-rays, she appeared to have laminitis. I got a second view on that from Sharon May Davis (equine skeletal expert) and she said that it wasn't laminitis, but long toe trimming, coupled with seedy toe (white line disease), which meant that the toe wall had separated forwards, rather than the pedal rotating down. All part and parcel of an unbalanced foot. It's interesting to add trimmer Peter Laidely's viewpoint, that (mechanical) laminitis and navicular are often part and parcel of the same problem.
I must stress that a good remedial trimmer is important in drastic cases, it's definitely not a job for the trimmer who does 'one trim suits all'... Mandal, an approach rooted in Strasser's toe angles didn't work at rebalancing the hoof, leaving her unable to cope with our steep paddock, but I'm not sure how many trimmers are still using those principles in the UK now.
Good posts, thanks for helping to string it all together - again! It's a bit like laminitis, with so many factors, causes and effects. I feel like I've got bad mental TV reception sometimes, when it phases out!
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Post by ellibell on Mar 18, 2009 0:41:50 GMT 1
Thee is a lot more to navicular then we know. MyElliott was diagnoised with this last July. To complicate matters, he also has arthritis in allforleg joints and poss in his spine poss due to inherited genes.
His ledt fore showed slight bony changes in the cofin joint but it is the impar ligament that was causing the problem in this foot. With rest as in no ridden work, jst pasture exercise he is now only 1/10 lame in this foot. Hois right fore, the vet said you only see a case like this once in a lifetime. There seems to be a cycst/chip/thingy in the centre of the navic bone, into the joint, not under the tendon. This seems not to resolve, plus he has boney lumps around the top part of the cofin joint. He has never been shod. I told the vet point blank he will never be shod. They all commented on how well balanced his feet are in the xrays. They said they are text book balanced and are correct for his conformation. As he has had the same farrier all his life, he has always had balanced feet.
The vet wanted me to box him, walk in hand 10 mins a day and increase by 5 mins a week for 16 weeks. After 3 days I turneds him out as he was box walking stressing, and if in small paddock, fence walking. He is always 1/10 to 2/10 lame right fore worse.had jointjabs too. While heis happy tobounceand play with the others, he can bea lawn ornament, he owes me nothing. Rhis winter the ground proved a problem when it froze. He went to 3/10 lame both feet. I use my biomag unit on him and this seems to help. Now we are aiming for quality of life over wuantity due to the navic, arthritis and I also feel he may be starting with a metabolic issue. I also feel all the above are related in some way.
I appologise for my bad spelling etc, am currently in hospital after a nasty fall (all my fault) from my young pony and the pain killers and other drugs make focusing a tad hard.
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eden
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Post by eden on Mar 18, 2009 9:01:26 GMT 1
ellibell I hope you are ok this morning?xxx
I have learnet some much on this board! more than I ever did a college.xxx
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Post by mandal on Mar 18, 2009 9:24:47 GMT 1
Mandal, an approach rooted in Strasser's toe angles didn't work at rebalancing the hoof, leaving her unable to cope with our steep paddock, but I'm not sure how many trimmers are still using those principles in the UK now. There are Strasser trimmers over here but due to all the horror stories and litigation surrounding some cases most people on here use trimmers trained in KC La Pierres HPT trim which as far as I understand is based on the 'internal arch' of the foot, KC's Theory Suspension Theory of Hoof Dynamics and is backed up scientifcally with a model and equation. The Natural trim based on wild horses and using what the horse is trying to grow as the main guide is another trim used here. Both these methods trim with an important rule "Do no harm" so neither of them invade live sole or should leave the horse tender etc. Ellibel I hope you are home soon...
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Jane
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Post by Jane on Mar 18, 2009 10:28:34 GMT 1
Few people use Strasser's methods here, although there were a lot of clinics here years ago, in the early days. I only left the UK 18 months ago, and yes KCLP was 'the big one' then. He's not here though! Most trimmers here are using the wild horse model... probably because there are so many to study from :-) Robert Bowker did a lecture over here last year.... Mandal you might be interested in the wild horse study into hooves/lammi at the Univ of Qld... www.wildhorseresearch.com . ellibel, you're doing just great with the focusing! Could your horse's "navicular" in fact be arthritis in the joints, but within the hooves instead? It's all skeletal. So totally systemic rather than mechanical/balance related? With the same outcome, just different cause. (And I know you, don't I, from a VHT course... ouch, hope you feel better soon.)
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Post by mandal on Mar 18, 2009 10:35:51 GMT 1
Robert Bowker was over here too last year he attended the UKNHCP conference and did a seminar... Here's a link to an out line of his theories www.uknhcp.org/page57.htmlThanks for that link. Chris Pollitt is the other Scientist who has impacted greatly on trimming over here too.
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pip
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Post by pip on Mar 18, 2009 12:37:57 GMT 1
As far as the youngster diagnosed with navicular - of course the diagnosis might be incorrect, or just generally as "pain in the foot" and in Horse and Hound there was an article a year or two ago that said that a larger % of horses diagnosed with navicular disease (of the bone) actually had soft tissue damage.
Some horses diagnosed with navicular turned out to have thrush for instance. I went to a Pete Ramey clinic and he cautioned about thinking that all horses are treatable. He was trying to rehabilitate one horse that he eventually gave up on and when he saw the dead feet the poor animal had hardly any bone at all and all he had been doing was prolonging the agony.
On the other hand, there have been many horses that have been snatched from death's door by suitable trimming and rehabilitation.
I think my horse was probably on the way to navicular until I had his shoes removed. He now walks correctly.
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eden
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Post by eden on Mar 18, 2009 12:47:04 GMT 1
So why do the take the nerve out? Now a friends horse had this done, had been a show jumper all its life, still does a little hacking. He has always had bad feet and always shod, to me I would try him without shoes?
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Post by Susan on Mar 18, 2009 14:09:55 GMT 1
To me de-nerving is a terrible thing to do but sadly some vets still recommmend it.. nerves are there to tell you something and so is pain. Pain doesnt always mean real bad and PTS pain but an alarm bell or something worse but it is there for a reason. If you have a pain you will act accordingly. So does the horse. Take away that feeling and you continue on regardless. I can not accept that is good at all. Even painkillers do not totally take away pain on a day to day basis. That horse could in fact damage itself badly and not even know it or its owner.
To take away the nerve and pain then continue with all you want to do is like living a lie.. and the damage that is there which is causing the pain is also still there and will increase to much worse IMHO. Sorry I can not accept it at all. Horses rarely have to have bad feet, yes a few might be born with an issue but that is few in the scheme of things. Bad feet are made bad feet by man mostly. Even using them far too young and doing too much too soon is damage by man. That can be the cause as well as imbalancing through incorrect footcare. Concussion is another serious issue made again by man, trotting on roads unshod increases concussion then add a shoe and increase that 4 fold. If that foot is even slightly out of balance the increased affects of concussion and imbalance on that small navicular bone is untold. No wonder the horse will have problems later. You cannot strengthen limbs by doing this and risk serious results by doing it. Depending on what is asked and how bad at an early age can be why also seeing lameness. Adding a heavier shoe to me is not the answer. I personally suffer bad feet, arthuritus in my joints and now showing boney changes and I medicate as needed and wear footwear that still allows me to function as best as possible. But to cut the nerves in my feet so I didnt feel the issue would be terrible to do. I also take lots of supplements which I know helps me a lot to stay active but I dont do a X/C event or even run down the road. My body tell me what I can do. I know why because I did too much too early in my life in sport alot of x/c running on roads and at that time in very poor footwear not suitiable for the job. I suffered serious concussion with a shoe that did not allow my foot to be balanced and infact increased the concussion as not supportive to the jobneeded. Not sure we even had such footwear then as we now have.
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Post by welly on Mar 18, 2009 22:26:18 GMT 1
De-nerving is a last resort so the horse can continue to work. I expect the alternative would be PTS. This is a standard treatment - but before anyone had heard of barefoot rehabilitation and/or hoof boots.
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Post by Susan on Mar 19, 2009 1:21:48 GMT 1
Welly still standard treatment in this day and age.. not right... and to work.. at what cost.. sorry I still can not accept it is right.. I have met over the years horses that were in our own words of the owner hobby horses de-nerved..that isnt work! or needed to work. now we do have alternatives but some experts do not get out of the box of what they know and see they can do something else. I think it should be banned..
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