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Post by heather on Dec 27, 2008 17:49:40 GMT 1
By Dr Gerd Heuschmann, campaigner against rollkur and other detrimental training techniques. This DVD is a must for anyone who wants to understand why modern training techniques are so damaging to the horse.
I just hope that now the FEI dressage committee have been booted out, en masse, that a return to more classical principles of correct gymnastic training will prevail. This DVD is superb, and really illustrates why such techniques are damaging, using excellent computer animation and footage of correct and incorrect training, in a way which is easily understandable by the layman.
The rider is a friend of mine, German based US trainer, David de Wispelaere, who is one of the kindest trainers I have ever come across, training horses to the highest levels, completely without force.
I hope that the BHS will make this required viewing for exams. Heuschman's excellent book 'Tug of War' is already recommended reading for the BHS exams ( in fact I think it was made required reading) and this DVD is the perfect complement to the book.
Heather
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Post by rhillahorse on Dec 27, 2008 18:40:01 GMT 1
I'll look out for that, thanks. Tug of War is a fascinating read, I'm glad it's on the BHS exam list.
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Post by horsey123 on Dec 27, 2008 19:19:55 GMT 1
will deffo get hold of a copy
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varkie
Grand Prix Poster
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 4,913
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Post by varkie on Dec 27, 2008 19:45:00 GMT 1
It's on my birthday wishlist, definitely keen to have it - I got Classical vs Classique for Xmas!
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Post by heather on Dec 27, 2008 19:48:01 GMT 1
Interestingly, Gerd Heuschmann is also now working with Philippe Karl, Clare, so I am curious as to how they get along!! PK's book 'Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage' is the best book I have read in a long time!
Heathre
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Post by Kelly Marks on Dec 27, 2008 21:57:26 GMT 1
Hi Heather I'll be interested for you to see the Imke Bartells book when you get a chance. Puts the case forward for 'long and low' - sounds very fair and interesting. However, when you see their photos they are nothing like abusive rolkur photos one sees and one wonders who is talking about what. I can't help thinking that there must be so many versions of this long and low that people might not realise the difference between what is acceptable and what isn't - it's important to be completely clear in what exactly we're talking about. According to the Bartells book Anke and they have quite a proportion of world class horses in their late teens which is impressive in itself. Interestingly physio Mary Bromiley says long and low is really good for horses and many physios recommend the pessoa which put them in that position. Carl Hester says it's right to work overbent for training and bring them up for the competition (I saw on Horse and Country). This is all getting very important to me as Pie and I get older as we want to keep in good shape! (Except round Christmas when it's OK to flab out a bit). Kx Sorry - that was a bit of a ramble - question for the DG focus team is "Where exactly is too low or overbent? How long is too long? Does the breed of horse or pony make a difference? What are the benefits of training against no training at all?' Discuss!
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Post by Kelly Marks on Dec 27, 2008 21:58:32 GMT 1
P.S. And where can you buy the DVD from? I really enjoyed my Anje DVD from you.
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Post by Kelly Marks on Dec 27, 2008 22:05:42 GMT 1
Found this video excerpt but don't like it at all - seems less educational and more propaganda - don't need all that flashy stuff and horses dying - is the actual DVD all like this? www.stimmen-der-pferde.de/index/FlashLow
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nettle
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Post by nettle on Dec 27, 2008 23:14:50 GMT 1
The trailer is a bit extreme - the DVD isn't like that all the way through. The explanations of the damage that incorrect work does, with examples of good and bad, and animation are really clear.
*edited to add* there's no dying horse either; it's being anaesthetised for an operation.
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Post by heather on Dec 28, 2008 0:52:14 GMT 1
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Post by Kelly Marks on Dec 28, 2008 9:44:15 GMT 1
But it's not sooo different from the actual Olympic tests is it? I read somewhere that someone was 'appauled' by what The Guardian had written about dressage (so of course I had to look it up - see below). I thought it was really quite funny. The higher you get the more it seems to be the kind of circus that has gone out of fashion. I'm taking a keen interest in all this as one of my proteges is really interested in competitive dressage and I'm keen to support her - but are we kidding ourselves the higher levels could ever be done ethically and with real consideration to the horse?
Olympics: Ballroom dancing for horses is so out of stepComments (17) David Mitchell The Guardian, Saturday 16 August 2008 Article historyI've just been watching coverage of the Olympic dressage and I must say I'm absolutely baffled. In case you haven't seen it, let me explain what happens: people dressed in a sort of funereal version of fox-hunting gear take it in turns to go into a large sandy arena riding horses that seem to have been driven mad. The horses behave like the deranged dancing bears in those charity adverts, doing weird fidgety fastidious things that clearly aren't natural to them: they hop from foot to foot, they walk on the spot, they stand still for a bit, quivering, before turning round in awkward timorous circles and walking diagonally across the arena.
Quite what treatment these creatures have been put through to get them to be this odd I dread to think, but it gets stranger: sometimes the horse and rider's obsessive antics are condemned by the commentators and judges as disappointing and sloppy, while behaviour no more or less insane is hailed as excellent and just the thing, and indeed quite the spectacle to behold.
I wonder if any of these people saw the opening ceremony? For their sakes I hope not; if they find watching a horse getting the shakes in a sand-pit spectacular, the sight of those fireworks would have exploded their minds.
Now I know there must be rules to dressage. It's not really just craziness arbitrarily scored, like a sort of tortured horse version of Mornington Crescent, but the fact that brilliance and incompetence are indistinguishable to all but the dressage cognoscenti does not speak well of the sport.
I couldn't watch it for long without the question "Why is doing this in any way good?" springing to mind. I'm perfectly willing to admit that it must be very difficult to make horses do that, but what's the point?
Obviously I'm straying into dangerous territory asking what's the point of a sport - you can argue that almost any leisure activity is pointless, but most sports involve at least something accomplished or exciting enough to make it clear why the activity is pursued. But with dressage, I'm not sure. I completely understand why it's good to make horses run fast or jump over things - but what is the satisfaction in this tuneless dance, this effortful yet unentertaining capering about?
I must admit that my feelings against dressage are intensified by the fact that it's one of the sports that is scored by judges. I don't like that. I accept that some sort of judging is involved in all Olympic events - whether it's a referee in a hockey match or a line judge in the tennis - but the judging involved in gymnastics, diving and dressage is on a completely different level. They're not just deciding whether or not a goal has been scored, but what a goal actually is. The spectre of artistic impression hangs over them all in a way that makes me suspect that, skilful and worthwhile though gymnastics and diving may be, they should be put in the same category as dancing rather than the shot put: they're not, essentially, proper sports.
A proper sport has a clearly defined aim: "Get to that line first", "Throw that object the furthest", "Kick that round thing into that gap more times than them". It doesn't matter how inelegantly these things are done, the winner is clear; indeed, as sports develop, what is effective in the achievement of the stated aim is what comes to look elegant.
Sports that involve a judging panel have much fuzzier aims - a combination of electing to do difficult things while not being seen to have made any mistakes - and so you need several people's opinions to determine the extent to which the competitor has succeeded. If such subjectivity is permissible in determining victory or defeat, then why not open up the Olympics to ballroom dancing (after all, ice dancing is in the Winter Olympics), flower arranging or amateur dramatics? You might say that not all of those activities require peak physical fitness, but then neither do archery or shooting.
The distinction between proper and judged sports is at its clearest when you compare ski jumping in the Winter Olympics with the long jump. In ski jumping points are determined by various factors including "style" whereas the long jump is entirely about how far you jump, no matter how much of a gangly fool you look while you do it.
Surely the aim of ski jumping should be to jump as far or high as possible and then land safely? Why should style have anything to do with it if it doesn't help you jump further? If it was discovered that an airborne attempt at the hokey cokey added yards to the jump distance, surely that's what the jumpers should do - but they wouldn't because they'd lose points for style.
Of course the scoring problem is less easily fixed when it comes to gymnastics and diving, and I'm not really saying that the Olympics would be better without them. The fact that they are Olympic sports encourages people to get involved. And, within those sports, there's undoubtedly a clear sense of what excellence is.
But I'd nix the dressage in a heartbeat - and bring in snooker instead. It should be at least a couple of Olympiads before the Chinese and the Germans are better at that than us.
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Post by jennyb on Dec 28, 2008 10:36:55 GMT 1
The trouble is that the standard of most of the Olympic dressage tests was a world away from classical ideals, which is what Dr Heuschmann is complaining about. The only horse who sticks in my mind as being nicely and quietly ridden and close to classical ideals was Balugar, the Orlov Trotter. If you want to work your horse kindly and considerately and with regard to his long term soundness, don't try to emulate the Olympic riders, lol! As Heather says, hopefully now that the FEI dressage committee have been called to resign after their dreadful behaviour at the Olympics etc, we might start to see a bit of a shake up in our sport so that the classical ideals can return to competition dressage. Not all judges are bad, I know of one who actively penalises short tense necks and overbending in tests, he is a list 2 judge and does judge on international panels. But even he gets frustrated when his poor marks for overbending and tenseness are not mirrored by his fellow panel judges at the bigger comps I am bimbling along in my own merry way, training my horse as I see fit, with no gadgets, plenty of time and patience and certainly no overbending. Yes, he is allowed to stretch, lengthen his frame and lower his neck, but he does not work like that constantly, he is encouraged to lift his neck and lighten his forehand too to develop strength and suppleness in his quarters. Time will tell if the dressage judges like my methods or not, as he is certainly not ready to compete yet, but if they don't like it, tough! I won't be hard on my horse and sacrifice my beliefs in order to win a rosette.
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Post by heather on Dec 28, 2008 11:13:33 GMT 1
That is just the problem, Kelly, it is not so different from the actual Olympic tests. The rider that actually stood out in my mind, was Marc Boblet, a French guy I had never heard of before. His test stood out for me as classical in every way, calm, no tension, horse looked light and happy, and as I thought, he didnt get a look in! I remember some years ago at the Barcelona Olympic Games, one horse and rider stood out for me, and that was a rider from the Bahamas of all places, on a grey horse, Suzie Dunkerley, no one had ever heard of her, but she stood out in my mind always. I couldnt believe it when I later met David DeWispelaere, who features in this DVD, and discovered that the grey horse had been his own GP horse, and Suzie his pupil!! That piece in the Observer was tongue in cheek, but in many cases, not short of the mark! I would FAR rather watch good working equitation riding than GP dressage. For instance, Pedro Torres uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupkand a clip I put up of world champion David Oliveira on his fabulous horse Otario ( a horse which it is my ambition to ride- three of my forum members have had a lesson on him!!- lucky buggers!) www.clipshack.com/Clip.aspx?key=885CBC92CB111C9FI missed David's dressage test in the morning as I had to man our trade stand! But it is all ridden one handed. I have watched David and his Father Luis Filipe working at home, happy horses, without stress and tension, to me, the epitome of horsemanship. Have to go ride my own Lusos now, but will give a more in depth review of the video later. Interestingly, my Luso gelding Sedutor, Sudi to his friends, was sold to me as he would 'never make a dressage horse'. No, he never would have, being trained the way he was. Ultra sensitive and hot as hell, he would never stand being pressurised up to the bit, but having given him as much time as he needs to get to know and trust me, he is now so chilled I cant believe he is the same horse!And for most of the time now, I can ride him on nothing more than the weight of the reins- but in competition, I would probably be told that I had no contact!!! I give up!! Heather
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Post by jonswager on Dec 28, 2008 11:22:05 GMT 1
Hi Heather I'll be interested for you to see the Imke Bartells book when you get a chance. Puts the case forward for 'long and low' - sounds very fair and interesting. However, when you see their photos they are nothing like abusive rolkur photos one sees and one wonders who is talking about what. I can't help thinking that there must be so many versions of this long and low that people might not realise the difference between what is acceptable and what isn't - it's important to be completely clear in what exactly we're talking about. According to the Bartells book Anke and they have quite a proportion of world class horses in their late teens which is impressive in itself. Interestingly physio Mary Bromiley says long and low is really good for horses and many physios recommend the pessoa which put them in that position. Carl Hester says it's right to work overbent for training and bring them up for the competition (I saw on Horse and Country). This is all getting very important to me as Pie and I get older as we want to keep in good shape! (Except round Christmas when it's OK to flab out a bit). Kx Sorry - that was a bit of a ramble - question for the DG focus team is "Where exactly is too low or overbent? How long is too long? Does the breed of horse or pony make a difference? What are the benefits of training against no training at all?' Discuss! I really really recommend 'Philippe Karl- Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage'. I think you would find it very interesting Jenny
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Post by heather on Dec 28, 2008 11:27:54 GMT 1
Absolutely, Jenny- PK's book is an absolute must and really complements Gerd's book and DVD. They are now working together as well. Gerd's book also features Anja, Kelly, doing it all correctly!!
Heather
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