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Post by jennyb on Jan 2, 2009 16:47:15 GMT 1
Steve, you would be very interested to watch Classical vs Classique, the DVD of Christophe Hess & Philippe Karl's discussion about training methods! I just watched it yesterday and was busy yelling at the tv for a good two hours, lol! I already know I like PK and the French Classical system because of the focus on lightness, but it was so interesting to see the two teach. Hess focuses on forward and leaving the mouth alone - I personally prefer to slow it all down a bit and have the horse working in balance and let the gaits come in time when the horse is physically ready
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Post by heather on Jan 2, 2009 17:47:20 GMT 1
Hi Steve, Forwards, forwards, forwards, is the way to put a horse on its forehand!! Then, that horse has to be brought back up again, to lighten the shoulders!! The difference between German and French classical schools, is that the German school concentrates on movement before balance, but the French school concentrates on balance before movement. I have trained in both methods, but returned to the French school especially since working with Iberians. The German school can get away with it more with warmbloods, but remember, these were derived from carriage horses, and even extensions were considered to be the paces of carriage horses, for covering distance, and where collection wasnt necessary!! I love the supreme lightness of the French school, and it makes so much more sense when working with horses, whose paces are not the 'genetically engineered' sporthorses, for whom, as Philippe Karl says in his latest book, the work is half done for you! When you take an ordinary horse, such as one of my students and EET, Omar Rabia, with his coloured cob, Ketchup, and improve the paces to the point that her lateral work would rival most sporthorses and she has a piaffe which most GP riders would die for. Omar competed Trakehners prior to this, and inherited Ketchup when his sister no longer wanted to ride, but says he has had so much more satisfaction in training Ketchup, so much that he has now written a book entitled 'Cobs Can'!! Jenny, I dont think PK did himself the best service in the head to head DVD with Hess. The horse he chose to illustrate his training, wasnt an ideal one, when compared with the warmbloods Hess brought. Yes it was a cracking little horse- Oldenburg x Haflinger of all things!- and could jump like a stag! And yes, his youngish rider had done very well to train him largely without PK's supervision to the level of the work he could produce, but the piaffe was triangulating badly, the very thing that PK had such a scrap about with Michel Henriquet, because of Michel showing pics of wife Catherine Durand, on a Trakehner, in a triangulating piaffe. Pot rather called the kettle black there! PK would have been far better to have brought the Luso stallion, Quie E La, for instance, who he said in the earlier DVD's was a rather ordinary horse with ordinary paces. IN the last two DVD's this didnt appear to be an ordinary horse at all!! Wonderful piaffe and passage especially and some pretty impressive extensions, given the limited ability of the horse! What for me was so impressive though, in the Classical vv Classique DVD, was PK getting on the warmblood stallion of the pupil of Hess. Going overbent and on his shoulders with his rider, mouth winched shut with a flash noseband, PK tipped her off, removed the offending flash, did a few Baucher flexions, and hopped aboard. Within minutes this was a different horse. I would love to have seen him work him for longer. LIght in the hand and on the shoulders, you could almost see the stallion saying 'Phew, thank god for that'!! Apparently, his rider was fascinated and enthused, and wanted to ask PK a lot more questions, but was thwarted by her trainer, Hess! See the interview with PK on Horses For Life magazine: horsesforlife.com/PhilippeKarlInterviewHeather
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Post by maggiesmum on Jan 2, 2009 18:23:58 GMT 1
I'm a CRC member!
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Post by jennyb on Jan 2, 2009 20:02:38 GMT 1
I know, my heart sank and I could just imagine what Hess was going to say about that little horse. I agree though, PK redeemed himself a LOT when he got on that last horse, you really could sense the relief of the horse to be ridden kindly at last! And how tight must that noseband have been to have to be loosened THREE times before PK was happy?!! I wonder how much, if any, of it sunk in with Hess though. He seemed to be thinking that it would be sufficient to explain the scales in more detail than to actually rethink and reorganise them
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Post by jennyb on Jan 2, 2009 20:09:50 GMT 1
Rubbish, I have forgotten my log in details for H4L mag. Have emailed for a reminder, will have to wait to read the end of that article! It cut off just as it was getting interesting as well!
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Post by heather on Jan 2, 2009 20:13:04 GMT 1
Hehe, I LOVED the body language on that DVD, Jen!!! PK looking up at the ceiling and around, and almost whistling, or so tight throughout his body, that he looked as though he would burst! Hess scowling in the corner, chin on hand, when PK was riding that last horse............. it was almost worth watching just for that!!
But PK did indeed totally redeem himself. I am trying to get up a small party who want to go watch him work at home, later this summer- interested? ;D
Heather
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Post by heather on Jan 2, 2009 20:15:37 GMT 1
PS, Jen, the second part of the interview with PK didnt appear in last months HFL- I must email Nadja and ask her what happened to it. Maybe it needed a bit of er........toning down!! PK doesnt mince his words!
Heather
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Post by Roz on Jan 2, 2009 20:22:42 GMT 1
Ooh Steve, Max sounds extremely exciting and how wonderful that he has an owner who respects that he needs time to mature physically (and mentally) and who won't damage his joints and growth plates by pushing him too far too young.
When I was looking for a WB to buy earlier on this year, I found it soooooo depressing, so many photos of 3 year old WB's being ridden in an 'outline' or behind the vertical. Strong bits, side reins, draw reins, spurs, all hideous.
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Post by jennyb on Jan 2, 2009 20:30:22 GMT 1
Ooh, quite possibly! Let me know timings etc and I'll see how I am doing for funds
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Post by jennyb on Jan 2, 2009 20:33:48 GMT 1
Plus I have just booked my tickets for the Gerd Heuschmann talk in April, can't wait for that one!
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steve
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 1,640
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Post by steve on Jan 2, 2009 20:57:09 GMT 1
Hi Heather,
I totally get what your saying but what I meant from riding fwds, fwds, fwds was riding back to front rather than just hanging onto the front end (getting the horse "on the bit") and letting the back hollow and the back end drag along. I concentrate more on impulsion than head carriage and fiddling with the bit! as I feel this comes if the horse is working thru from behind into the bridle. I dont mean the horse has to speed round at 100mph. I dont profess to be an expert nor am I anywhere near the rider I'd love to be but I do hope I teach sympathetically and let the horse come light under the rider and dont them restrict the impulsion with their hands with fiddling!
I went to my local riding clubs dressage at the weekend to watch and support some friends from my yard and I was horrified at the standard of riding - I know I'm a bit of a snob but the sawing on the mouth and the complete lack of care I witnessed was awful - one child, doing a walk and trot had no idea what the test was or where the letters were and gazed about looking for them as the test was read and pulled his poor pony about by the mouth - I just wondered in amazement as to what parent thought it would be a good idea to put him into a dressage test! Ok it was only walk and trot but even a child should be taught to ride properly from day one and not to drag a pony about by it's mouth - what hope do we have! I teach a few kids and I make all of them steer & halt with their body aids and not rely on the reins and I make damn sure they know that it's a pony an animal with feelings and emotions and let them know how much it hurts to pull on their mouth - Rant over!!
x
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steve
Grand Prix Poster
Posts: 1,640
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Post by steve on Jan 2, 2009 21:14:11 GMT 1
Thanks Roz, I cant work out how to post pics but yes i'm very lucky to have found him - he's very special and I hate to think of how he might have been pushed and tortured with draw reins and spurs at a young age. Some people at my yard think I should be competing him already in the 4yo classes but I'm in no hurry - he's my pet, my friend I dont want to spoil him. Hopefully they will see I was right to wait and the wait will be worth it!
I'm planning to lunge him for 2 to 3 months to strenghten him up - Heather do you agree this is the right way to go? I'd value your opinion.
Thanks
x
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Post by Roz on Jan 2, 2009 21:26:56 GMT 1
Steve, I've got a 16.3h 6 year old Danish WB who is beautifully bred (sire - Don Schufro out of a premium graded ridden mare)who started his ridden career at two and a half, now he has DJD in both hocks and will never be a 100% sound, but I love him to bits and he's got a home for life with me, with an occasional pootle round the lanes.
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Post by heather on Jan 2, 2009 23:10:35 GMT 1
Max is lucky as Roz says, to have you as an owner, Steve. Sadly the sights you saw at the weekend are all too common. Why oh why dont people realise just how much they are hurting their horses by riding in this way? I understand where you are coming from Steve, but often the horses we get in for reschooling have had their mouths buggered in a snaffle and just dont accept it. The easy ones are those that go round stargazing, but all too often now, it is the overbent ones and they are so much more difficult. But by using the pelham, usually just with an elastic curb, and asking the horse to relax the lower jaw - purely by 'asking' with my fingers, you wouldnt see me actually doing anything!- and then backing it up with the leg, once the jaw is relaxed, the poll relaxes and then the neck and back and the horse can then work 'through'. It literally takes a few minutes at most, and the transformation is immediate. But the secret is in 'giving', ie releasing any tension in the fingers by nothing more than a very slight uncurling, which will even give slack in the rein, and allowing the horse then to carry itself. I think that a lot of riders forget that piaffe has to have tremendous impulsion, but it is on the spot!! Too often, you see riders being made to ride the horse too forward, and running him out of his natural stride. Yes, I always have the horse in front of the leg, but often will slow things down, in order that the step gains more height and expression, because the joints have to work to propel the stride upwards, rather than just forwards. The feeling will be of a soft springing from one diagonal to the other, once the strength in the joints has built up. Then you can push the stride out without losing the expression. Have a look at the thread on my forum, following my yard manager Jenny's little Welsh Cob x TB over three months. We have worked him entirely in the French manner. www.enlightenedequitation.com/ee/boards/index.php/topic,30331.0.html He has had to have a month off now as he developed some sort of allergy lumps, but is now coming back into work, so we hope to update it again soon! Heather
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Post by heather on Jan 2, 2009 23:11:10 GMT 1
Jenny, I am about to book my tickets too, so see you there!
Heather
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