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Post by Kelly Marks on Nov 27, 2008 16:41:00 GMT 1
I was talking with a massage therapist today and she was saying that every horse she's worked on where the owner does ridden disengagement of the hindquarters regularly get very sore over the lumbar area and will even produce soft swelling there.
I know it can cause soreness along the neck and the sides of the horse - first read about this in Sara Wyche's 'The Anatomy of Riding' but hadn't heard about this lumbar soreness before.
It's why it's something I would personally only ever recommend for 'remedial cases' where I feel it could be justified to perhaps overcome a hopefully short term problem. I just wondered if anyone else had experience of this?
Thanks Kelly
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Post by wabuska on Nov 27, 2008 17:13:32 GMT 1
No. I must say, it's worrying as it's something I use a lot with my young horse to engage a more submissive attitude. It's it general to all horses I wonder?
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Post by donnalex on Nov 27, 2008 17:56:07 GMT 1
I should think that doing it equally on both sides would be better than using it on the same side every time. Easier said than done when in panic mode I suppose.
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Post by wabuska on Nov 27, 2008 18:47:20 GMT 1
I agree Donna. I'm confused actually as disengaging quarters would be part of a turn on the forehand surely too?
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laura
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Post by laura on Nov 27, 2008 19:18:23 GMT 1
could you elabourate kelly if you can ......as sorta mentioned already there can be a wide definition of just what ridden disengagement entails and how often it is carried out. Is the therpaist talking about horses regularily schooled ..... perhaps doing dressage ....... or can this also affect horses where the one rein stop is used ( and at what sort of frequency or "severity of turn" would one have to take care !) . ...... does the regularly refer to how often ridden or that the horse regualrly gets sore
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Post by Kelly Marks on Nov 27, 2008 19:26:22 GMT 1
Hi Sorry - to be clearer - using the one rein stop frequently. The speed you were doing it would make a big difference of course, I mean riding a small circle at a walk, or doing a turn on the forehand as pointed out I can't imagine could do any harm to a normal horse and not a 'normal' amount of times in a session (question to self 'what's 'normal'?) Say - not more than 5 times in a training session (?)
This thread is not meant as a right and wrong of the one rein stop i.e. risk of slipping and of training muscle memory wrong but purely as an investigation of physical problems that people may be noticing - the web is so amazing to enable to compare notes on things we may not have been aware of before (IMO)
PS Laura - I've got a week at home to catch up! Would love to be part of IH ride on Ridgeway White Horse Hill area - will start to look up properly what I have to do!
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laura
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Post by laura on Nov 27, 2008 19:41:43 GMT 1
thanks Kelly ...... I could actually see how that would happen if done sharply and repeatedly...... the risk to the neck is much more obvious but some of the horses do indeed really have to get the back leg under sharply in order to get release on the neck It is something I do if there is a problem with "brakes" rather than pull or tug on the head ........... it is not something I like to do regularly . BUt this back thing is something I will definately keep an awareness off as I am having to use the one rein stop on Bonney sometimes as she kinda got used to ignoring her loaner rider and I did not spot the problem soon enough ( or rather spotted but tried to fix it with her on board but that did not work). I agree that really that if the horse does not have a "problem" then there is no need really to regularly do a one rein stop. Gald you have caught up a little .. maybe I will with some of the RRB stuff now I am not working stoooooopid hours. Rest assured you will be getting sponsor forms once the logo comp is judged ... they are all ready and waiting ;D
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Post by wabuska on Nov 27, 2008 19:44:20 GMT 1
Ah, now, one-rein stop.... not to be used 'regularly'. I can't imagine why anyone would use it that way Kelly?
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laura
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Post by laura on Nov 27, 2008 19:52:50 GMT 1
I think kanga there is a branch of "NH" that does practice it quite a lot at times I know that with silversand we practiced it calmly when "teaching" it to the horses so that they knew what it means when the *** hits the fan .... but its walk a bit,do one, walk a bit , do one the other way etc and done with the emapasis opn softenss and coaxing the back end round at the horses pace. as with anything else if you take that and do it faster or more extreme..... thats when the physical problems start. Although i am sure it might also happen if its applied suddenly at speed with a horse that has bad brakes problems. with Bonney we are just doing it at walk ( VERY occasionally in trot when I thought she had them message but I was wrong )
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Post by donnalex on Nov 27, 2008 23:24:17 GMT 1
I suppose you have to take in account what injuries the horse and rider might have if you didnt use the one rein stop? I mean, it is easier to get the osteo out twice a year than scrape the horse and/or rider up off the road. So probably, in some circumstances, it may save some worse injuries.
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Post by wabuska on Nov 28, 2008 9:18:08 GMT 1
It's an emergency move isn't it. We used a milder version with Blue, where he simply learned to move away from my leg and turn, giving up whatever he was at, but it didn't feel like his back legs crossed.
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Post by jaxnbreeze on Nov 28, 2008 17:32:46 GMT 1
I was told to use this move whenever I felt my horse to be heavily on the forehand. Of course, I don't. I always thought this was also called the emergency one-rein stop.
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Post by Yann on Nov 28, 2008 17:48:01 GMT 1
Isn't it a standard part of PNH and similar style groundwork too, sending a horse round on a circle and then halting it by disengaging and making it face the handler? I know Richard Maxwell used to do this a lot and still does for all I know. Would it be as potentially detrimental without a rider on board?
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Post by wendyihts on Nov 28, 2008 17:50:07 GMT 1
Thing is though, how is it different from teaching a horse lateral work? they're still having to step under themselves behind. I wonder how the biomechanics might be different or whether the same thing can/does happen with lateral work?
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Post by gemmamarygold on Nov 28, 2008 18:00:51 GMT 1
I wonder whether the cases of soreness are where this is done ad nauseum. Almost all of the 'NH' schools teach the one-rein stop. But all of them say that you should teach it, ensure that you can do it at all paces, and then move on. You know you've got it should you need it, but once you start to refine things, the horse should go down a gait just by a slight lift of the rein.
But there are people who forget that, and will spend hours and hours and hours and hours peforming the same move over and over, and wonder why their horses get fed up and sore.
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