Treeless Saddles - pressure testing

[LuckyRed]

My saddler mentioned this study carried out by the SMS and I thought some of you might like to read it.

Heather - if you read this, my saddler (Mike Norton) mentioned that your written response was very good - is it published anywhere that us general public can read?

The Society of Master Saddlers (SMS) has carried out a pressure testing survey to see if treeless saddles have an advantage over traditional saddles with trees. Having purchased the latest pressure mapping system from German company Novel, the SMS carried out a comparative test on four types of treeless saddles.

As a result of two days’ vigorous testing, the Society has concluded that there is no advantage of having a treeless saddle over a traditional treed version. In fact it claims, as a result of its findings, that a well-fitted treed version could be more beneficial to the well-being of the horse than a treeless saddle.
The full report is published below.



Society of Master Saddlers Report on Treeless Saddles

The Society of Master Saddlers (SMS) joined forces with the British Equestrian Federation in 2007 to purchase the latest pressure mapping system from German company, Novel. Part ownership of the system has allowed the SMS to start to compile data collected from using the Pliance system.

One of the first, ongoing, assessments carried out is that of treeless saddles. To date the SMS have carried out two full test days for treeless saddles. On both occasions the same horse and rider were used and the tests were carried out in the same indoor arena and therefore on the same surface. Four different types of treeless saddle were tested and, where it was advised by the manufacturer, the appropriate pad was used. The horse was walked, trotted (rising & sitting), cantered & jumped on both reins.

Thus far, the information gathered has indicated that, without exception, there is no advantage to the horse in being ridden in a treeless saddle over a well fitting traditionally made treed saddle.

All of the saddles tested were found to exert pressure onto the horse’s spine under the rider, something that a well fitting, well balanced treed saddle does not do due to the tree distributing the rider’s weight either side of the horse’s spine.

All of the saddles tested had high, localised pressure under the stirrup bars. This was improved, in most circumstances, when the saddle was ridden without stirrups or with single thickness, dressage style stirrup leathers.

Also tested was the effect of a different weight rider. The regular rider was substituted with a heavier rider. Whilst the second rider’s actual weight was heavier, they could be described as having a ‘lighter’ seat. The Pliance system showed that the pressure produced from a heavier, ‘lighter’ seated rider was less than that of the lighter weight, regular rider thus indicating that the rider’s style has an influence on the pressure exerted under a treeless saddle.

In conclusion, the SMS have not found any advantage in using a treeless saddle over a well fitting treed saddle and, in most cases, would consider the use of a well fitting treed saddle to be more beneficial to the well being of the horse.

As stated previously, this is an ongoing collection of data and the SMS will continue to publish any new findings.

www.yourhorse.co.uk/Your-Horse-News/Search-Results/Gear-news/April-08/No-advantage-to-treeless-saddles/?&R=EPI-2293

[horsey123]

i still know that without treeless my ex eventer would still have a shark fin wither and muscle wastage all down her spine if i had carried on ridding her in the treed saddle witch was well fitted but dident allow muscle to grow like my treeless saddles have

[horsey123]

not saying a good treed saddle isnt fine

but the SMS would say this as they would not have a job is everyone road in treeless saddles

[gillmcg]

Oct 20, 2008 15:24:02 GMT 1 LuckyRed said:

One of the first, ongoing, assessments carried out is that of treeless saddles. To date the SMS have carried out two full test days for treeless saddles.

Does this mean they haven't carried out the tests on treed saddles? If so what are they comparing their findings to?

They also say: "there is no advantage to the horse in being ridden in a treeless saddle over a well fitting traditionally made treed saddle" and elsewhere that it has to be 'well-balanced'. Therein lies the problem for me and I'll stick with my treeless. A treed saddle cannot, by the very fact that it has a 'tree', fit the horse in all paces. You need to change the saddle (or at least the flocking) as the horse changes shape - it needs to be checked regularly by someone who really knows their stuff. Maybe I was very unlucky but I never found that 'someone' and here in France I'm even less likely to!!!

[heather]

I wrote ito ETN, n response to the SMS testing, Sarah, as I felt it was very biased and one sided and they hadnt done the sort of testing I did with the Pliance system, on a number of treeless saddles as well as a number of treed ones.

Here is my letter, below, which they turned into more of an article!:

With reference to the article in ETN News, June issue, regarding treeless saddles, as a manufacturer of one of the leading brands, I would like to comment. Firstly, I am not at all against well fitting/made treed saddles, having been a designer of them for many years before turning to treeless. I hired the Pliance system for a month when testing my own saddles for pressure, but also took the opportunity to test most of the other treeless brands on the market, along with a number of treed saddles, most of which had been fitted by qualified fitters.

As a classical dressage trainer and remedial riding trainer first and foremost, I was especially interested in how the way in which the rider sat, and interacted with the movement of the horse, also affected the pressure and therefore, the efficacy of the saddle. I experimented with a number of different riders and horses, at varying levels of riding, and my findings were as I suspected. I could easily see how the rider was sitting, and especially the way in which they absorbed the movement of the horse, by the moving pressure patterns on the computer screen, without even having to look at the caption.

I have always taught the rider to sit deeply, but lightly, synchronising their own movement with that of the horse, producing a quiet, elegant classical seat, ideally placed to give effective but invisible aids.

The pressure patterns in both well fitting treed and treeless saddles were similar, when the rider absorbed the movement in this way, with the rider being very light ( light pressure showing up as dark blue through to slight pressure, light blue) in the saddle and an even pressure pattern. When the rider started to ‘drive’ with the seat, so often seen in the dressage arena, and the cause of the flailing lower legs and nodding heads to be seen as well!- the pressure patterns altered radically, with ripples of red, showing considerable pressure, moving from the back of the saddle to the front in both sitting trot and canter. In rising trot, when the rider came behind the movement- far more obvious in treed saddles as the stirrup bars were further forward than on the treeless saddles- the pressure on the cantle region was immense, and stopped the horse moving forwards. This was also evident when the rider tried to remain too upright in rising trot, and had to thrust the pelvis back and forth to catch up with the movement.

Treed saddles with the stirrup bars recessed to avoid them sticking into the legs of the rider, showed far more pressure under the bars, than any of the treeless makes we tested, all of which came out very favourably in the tests we carried out, when used with the recommended pads and accessories. The photo, below, shows a pony who had been ridden in a brand new, well known make of treed saddle, fitted by a qualified person, for nine months. The recessed bars had caused this lump and white mark. The owner bought one of my saddles and the second photo shows the same pony after one year in the Fhoenix.


Infuriatingly, the moving pressure patterns of the Pliance system, were unable to be stored once the months software licence ran out, with only the static patterns being left. The equipment broke down at the end of the second week of testing and had to be sent back to Germany for repair, so did not help our programme either. However, I would love to be able to afford to buy the equipment, as I think that it is invaluable to be able to prove to a rider how their bad riding affects the performance of both saddle and horse!


I researched the history of treeless saddles a couple of years ago, and found enough examples worldwide, to fill a book. They have been around since the Scythian Army, 2400 BC. I rode on a Barnsby treeless saddle as a child and had always thought that the idea of having a completely flexible saddle made a lot of sense. My own Fhoenix saddles are far more structured than other ‘treeless’ makes, in that the tree is replaced by layers of shock and pressure absorbing materials, forming a ‘SoftTree’
as we term it, and with a gullet and panels, giving the feeling of a normal twist, and a similar support and stability for the rider, yet complete flexibility and comfort for the horse.

The bottom line has to be that the modern generation of treeless saddles has been around now for ten years, and their popularity is increasing.Ten years is enough time for problems to have shown up, and there are remarkably few reports of treeless saddles causing damage, far from it.

I agree that some treeless manufacturers have been very damning of treed saddles, just as plenty of treed manufacturers have been pretty damning of treeless saddles - ‘pot calling the kettle black’, methinks!!

Some horses do not like the feel of a treeless saddle, and there are many others who clearly do go better without a rigid structure on their back. So there is room for both, and the sooner all parties work together, instead of trying to prove that ‘this is better’, or ‘that is better’, the sooner the horse will benefit!

Sincerely,

Heather Moffett


Tell Mike, I am glad he approved- have known him for years

Heather

[mrsart]

I would be interested to know which treeless saddles they used.

In short time I have had my solution treeless saddle the difference in my mare has been amazing, and she has a traditional saddle which fits her beautifully.

My youngster I haven't really noticed any difference with the treeless, (apart from I'm more comfortable!) but he didn't have any problems.....

[jakeandbarneysmum]

There has been loads of testing on treed saddles. I was lucky enough to see a demonstration of the test equipment - it was being used to assess the pressure exerted on the horse's back during various mounting exercises - from the ground without assistance, from the ground with assistance (someone holding the other stirrup), from a mounting block without assistance, and from a mounting block with assistance, and finally, with a leg up. The pressure spikes measured on the offside when mounting from the ground were very severe - I know I'll always climb on to something before climbing on to my boy!!

[heather]

PS- tell Mike too, that I am designing a new range of treed saddles for Jeffries- the tree will be rather different !! I am very excited about it all! I personally wouldnt go back to a treed saddle but there are plenty who do want to ride in one, so we want to make a saddle that combines the best of both!

Heather

[LuckyRed]

www.ebmonthly.co.uk/images/NEWS/May_EBM_NEWS_4&5.pdf

Thanks for that Heather - a full and comprehensive response - as expected! It does seem that the SMS are a little biaised in favour of treed saddles but this arguement is a little like the shoe/barefoot debate and the 2 entrenched opinions have dug in for a war of attrition!

I'm using a K2 jump saddle with a Korrector pad at the moment - the Red monster appears to approve having had a problem earlier in the summer when he lost condition. I'd love to try the Pliance pressure testing system with a whole range of saddles both treed and treeless - all fitted correctly by appropriately trained fitters! I've always wanted a treeless for Red, but so far he has told me quite clearly (nearly bucking me off with one!) that he was not interested and didn't like them!

[heather]

It is rare that they dont like them, Sarah, but as I said in the article, not all horses do! Trust Red! ;D

But have you tried one since the old SBS? The new Vogues are very different.

The Korrector pad is a very useful invention, used to use them with treed saddles, but havent used them with the treeless. Funny thing, I was looking through all my pads in the tack room and realised I had lost the clamps off the Korrector and had meant to ring Flair to get some more as I want to experiment with it, especially as we are going back into treed saddles now too. So, thanks for reminding me to ring them, just off to do it now! ;D

Heather

[maryplain]

I didn't know that Barnsby used to make treeless saddles - do they still make them now?

[heather]

They do make a few of their old design, to order, maryplain- they held a patent from 1949. But their patent was only one of many- I could easily write a book on the subject of treeless saddles. There are some truly stunning ones down the ages, works of art!

Heather

[LuckyRed]

The new corrector pads are made of leather with the intention that they are left permanently attached - the cloth ones were OK but did need washing occasionally.

Heather - no, we've not tried your saddle since the SBS (which he didn't like at all - not the worst reaction but hollow backed and head high!). Maybe I'll keep an eye on EE and come down for a weekend clinic bringing the Red monster and you can convince me (and him) that there is a treeless that suits both of us!

[cobalmighty]

worth a shot Luckyred ;D me and my horse were that horse and rider that Heather used in the Pliance tests to try out various different saddling options - treed and treeless, and the differences in her way of going were astounding.

when I bought her she was in a treed (admittedly an awful one and not fit for rocking horse), but had ot so used to it that she trundled along without complaint, hollow and atrophied and short choppy striding. After 8 months in a treeless (SBS at the time) she had developed a back and a length of stride more befitting a 17.1hh heavy hunter! Soon as a treed saddle went on for the Pliance testing my light forward going zippy mare became a short striding and sluggish old plod in need of retirement!!! We failed to achieve more than three strides of canter at all!

Her reaction to the saddles was far more telling to me than the pressure readings on the screen. And when I rode "badly" for Heather, the poor mare stopped altogether and refused to go on.

The new Vogue (and even the Fhoenix) are such a leap of evolution on from the SBS both in feel and ride that you may just find the Red one changes his reactions.

Good luck and have fun
C x

[LuckyRed]

cobalmighty - what a great opportunity! I'd love to have the chance, especially with the benefit of the treeless saddles being fitted correctly. Here's a thought though - was the treed saddle well fitting, flocked with soft white-wool, did you try putting a korrector pad under it, or any other type of corrective pads - otherwise there's a danger the same accusations being leveled against this test as against the SMS testing - ie was it really fair and unbiased and was every effort made to make sure the saddles were fitted correctly and properly. I'm sure it was but that is the sort of thing that needs to be really transparant during this sort of test if the results are to be able to stand without being criticised and dismissed.