HeatherL*
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Post by HeatherL* on Aug 31, 2007 20:18:32 GMT 1
Thank you for passing on my stroke :-) Look foward to seeing you tomorrow. Maybe tomorrow will be a day for latent learning for Zorelle. Going by the Arran Parker thread, god knows what's in store for us tomorrow with Ms. Whitmore!
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Post by arabheaven on Sept 1, 2007 19:12:48 GMT 1
thanks liz - yes thats a very good explanation youve done so well with her xx
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Post by gingerloon on Sept 1, 2007 23:26:26 GMT 1
oh liz that is all just so amazing, you must still be grinning. I shouldn't worry about or question off days. She might have just been testing that you were committed still and could still be trusted, or she may just hvae been having one of those off days where things just don't click, we all have them anyway, keep up the fab work and keep us posted xx
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2007 17:33:42 GMT 1
Well, it looks like we've hit a difficult spot. Loose in the field, she's quite comfortable with me being around her. She even nickered at me and felt brave enough to take a couple of snatches of hay from my hand (no, not feeding snacks!). This morning, I took her in her pen and just stood with her, nice and quite, and it was good. You could even start to see her head lower by an inch or so.
My big mare, Betty, is now being allowed in the field next to Zorelle. They are happy together, no squealing, so I wondered if it might be easier for Zorelle to work next to Betty. We put up a pen area next to the fence and tried working in there this evening. Ooops, that was a mistake. I felt wrong, Zorelle felt wrong, and it just didn't gel. So we moved her back into the usual pen and she settled.
The problem, though, is the human hand. It's just mega, mega nasty for her. Even though I quickly got back to the point of being able to stroke her, her tension is intense. Next to her, she can cope with you. Touching her is just one step further that she can't cope with.
So, maybe sounding a backwards step, we got the blue pole out again. Jo went in this time (back from the course, yay!), and Zorelle quickly settled to the familiar scratching the withers with the pole. Jo was then able, within a few minutes, to work her hand up the pole until she was stroking her with the back of her hand but with the pole still there. It is, then, the conviction that the hand is going to grab her that is the issue, I think.
The problem, of course, is that even though the hand doesn't grab her, her it's the expectation of the event that causes the fear. As she was afraid last time, she'll remain afraid next because we're not reaching the point that she feels any better about it. I'm hoping that a few sessions with the pole will get her more relaxed in our presence and with the feel of the real hand(you could just start to see her head lower and her eye soften), and that we'll be able to look to removing the pole gradually thereafter.
It's a really key time for her. If you push her too far, she tries hard to hold but can't. Pushing on is therefore just not an option. Progress is still there, it's just slow. Just as well patience is my middle name!
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Post by gingerloon on Sept 2, 2007 20:50:31 GMT 1
you gotta walk before you can run liz you are doing fab with her, you know in your head that you will get good and bad spots, some days will be several steps backwards, some may be a no move at all and others may be a leap forward. I know you will get there keep focused on the massive achievement you have already made and don't focus on the end result Not that I need to tell you that but sometimes it helps to hear it keep up the good work, and if you want a good feel update check out my thread on seren xx
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Post by Furiey on Sept 2, 2007 21:25:33 GMT 1
These French/Spanish rescue horses have been a real mixture, but it sounds like you got the right horse Liz. Someone without your experience, patience and facilities would really struggle, much to Zorelle's detriment. I'm sure you'll get there in the end, as you say, with patience!
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HeatherL*
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Post by HeatherL* on Sept 2, 2007 21:39:51 GMT 1
No pearls of wisdom from me, I think your instinct is right. I guess that old adage of "it will take as long as it takes" is spot on in this case isn't it? Luckilly for Zorelle she has patient Liz and Jo to help rebuild her trust and eventually teach her hands don't have to hurt.
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gillmcg
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Post by gillmcg on Sept 3, 2007 10:25:32 GMT 1
Liz - "when the student is ready....."!!! ;D Two thoughts: - keeping the hand balled in a fist so it doesn't 'look' like a hand (or a big cat's paw!)? - making a 'hand on a pole' - like the one Ian uses for leg work?
Apologies if you've thought of these already....
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2007 11:54:11 GMT 1
You lot are so supportive, I don't think I mentioned how amazing it is to know you're all so interested.
Thanks for the thoughts, Gill. We did try to introduce the hand on a stick with her and she didn't take too kindly to it. I'm not sure if it was just because it was new or because it still looks like a hand, and in this case an open hand. I'm trying to keep my hand soft, back of the hand or curled but it is just such a big, big thing.
I was speaking to a friend who does Reiki last night and she's suggested trying to touch her with another part of my arm, for instance trying to keep my hands behind my back and stroking with the elbow. We'll give that one a go.
Any more good ideas, though, please do say (anyone at all!).
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Post by sarahfox on Sept 3, 2007 12:27:02 GMT 1
ok,well I'm training with klaus hempfling,what he would say would be that its what is behind the hand that counts. Meaning that whatever you are feeling inside is transmitted to the horse,and also you can choose to project certain things through your touch. here are some of the things that according to klaus,the horses want from us if they are to trust; constancy,clarity,power,modesty,stillness,courage,joy,devotion and reslouteness. I would also add patience,gentleness and the feeling that there is all the time in the world and you want nothing from the horse,but what it is willing to give,with the absolute promise of no pain. I have all these things in my mind when I go to a horse,especially with the 3 french mares,I tell them too! I also try not to create images in my mind of things ,like,for example,touching or putting headcollars on etc,it is like a dance whenever you are with a horse and all our movements and even thoughts should be fluid and calm. Think of how you physically touch her too,it should be a soft,yet firm,fluid movement,the first touch with all 3 of mine was like an electric shock for them,they bunched up,shaking and jumped when I made contact,so the contact had to connect in a firm way,yet very smooth and without pressurising,but remaining there with them when they jumped,reassuring them. I find it really hard to explain things like this,so just hope it makes some sense for you!( you did ask!!)
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Post by sarahfox on Sept 3, 2007 12:28:58 GMT 1
btw,I have been using a pole ( just a short one) to touch ellys back legs as she kicks out violently to the hand still,and the pole has worked great! try the hand again next!!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2007 17:17:01 GMT 1
Thanks Sarah, yes to a lot of that.
We had a backwards wobble at the beginning to today but made up lost ground plus a bit. The problem is still the anticipation is worse than the fact, so it's breaking through that anticipation without sending her climbing out of the pen that's the problem. So, my inclination is to cut some of the going slowly stuff that I know she can cope with and start to get on with it a bit. Well, we did have some high adrenelin but all controlled fairly quickly. And I've now found a new pole trick that got us there in the end. 1001 things to do with an extendible pole (not washing windows, though!).
The habit was becoming that she'd put herself into her favourite corner of the pen, hold for a while, then shoot backwards. It was getting quite frustrating as you could only get so far before PING and she'd bomb back again. Which is where the pole comes in - up the bottom! So to speak, anyway. By holding the pole out behind her, I found I was able to hold her in place while reaching forwards towards her shoulder. I did give one attempt at the using my elbow instead of my hand but felt so awkward and unbalanced that I'm afraid that good idea was put away again. Instead, I decided to cut the anticipation and just go for the back of my hand. Her breathing was high but she stayed there.
To start off with, I just kept my hand on her, no movement, just concentrating on my breathing and relaxing my body. Here's picking up on one of your words, Sarah: stillness. I felt that was so important for her. As she's been grabbed, I have to prove that I'm the opposite. No motion, just peace and stillness. I stood for a few minutes without moving, then gave her a break, then went back in.
We carried on with this for probably 15 minutes, with a couple of breaks, starting off still, then stroking, as you say with a firm fluid movement. I told her how much I loved her and how beautiful she was, and that all we wanted to do was love her. I was nearly in tears as I talked and I'm nearly in tears now.
Her breathing did lower, as did her head. There was a lot of yawning when I finally let her go (stress release), so she wasn't actually relaxed but I do think (pretty please) that the end of the session wasn't nearly as stressful as she'd feared.
And we managed to get a fairly good look under her belly and tail - no flies!!!!
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Post by sarahfox on Sept 3, 2007 17:39:00 GMT 1
hehe! good plan with the pole!I shall remember that one! One other thing I found was that I had to get my body sideways really close into the shoulder ( almost pinning them still without touching) before I could reach up and touch,from there you can step bacwards and forwards with them and remain in place relative to them as long as they dont freak and leap off! I agree that they have clearly been sqaushed in a corner and grabbed,does make life so difficult I found with elly and bonita that I could hold their heads gently with my hand way before I could get the headcollar near,but once I had done that a couple of times and just stood there gently with them the headcollar wasnt much of an issue.Guiness on the other hand is still resisting! Time will bring the rest for you I'm sure,one day the trust will just be there.( klaus disagrees with me on this btw!)
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HeatherL*
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Post by HeatherL* on Sept 3, 2007 17:50:01 GMT 1
I don't want to sound all "new agey" but I think there is an awful lot to what Sarahfox said about the feeling transmitted with the touch, or the intention as I think of it.
I read Magrit Coate's book recently Healing for Horses and whilst I certainly think I have no gift for healing after reading of the intention she has when she lays her hands on the horse she tries to transmit an overwhelming sense of love to the horse. I'm convinced that I witnessed our EDT do something similar when he first came to meet Bella. She's scared of men in general and so we'd thought it best for her to have a get to know you session with him before he came out to do any work on her teeth. I wanted him to meet her out of the stable so she didn't feel confined and would be less likely to panic but after he'd managed to give her a stroke while she quivered underneath his touch he asked if he could take her into the stable. I reluctantly agreed and hovered around outside the door feeling anxious for her, poor old Bella started to get a bit worried and what he did next amazed me. He reached his hand gently to the side of her face and finally rested it on her poll I expected her to hit the roof but she suddenly stood still and he just stood there gently resting his hand on her poll with his head lowered and gaze to the floor. It was a kind of peaceful feeling that surrounded them and after a few minutes she allowed him somewhat reluctantly to have a quick peep in her mouth. Neither of us mentioned this quiet moment he'd shared with her I kind of get the feeling he didn't want to talk about it, but I'm convinced that somehow he'd managed to get it across to her that she shouldn't be afraid. He's a big burley bloke but he has such a way with the horses I'm convinced there's more to him than meets the eye. Bella certainly picked up on his intention so there you go, I'm a paid up member of the new age nutters club, but I can't deny what I saw with my own eyes.
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Post by sarahfox on Sept 3, 2007 19:21:30 GMT 1
lucky you to have such a great EDT! Mine is excellent too,but what a touching story. I dont really think it is that big a leap of faith to accept that the horses can sense your inner self,after all we have long since accepted that they can tell if we are nervous or afraid,I'm not sure how much they are picking up from our bod language,perhaps all of it,although we know they react to things like pheromones too.I think that Klaus just takes it one step further,but then so does mark rashid these days and his horse work is even better for it. Welcome to the new age nutters club,HeatherL! fancy a biccie??!
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