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Post by kas on Dec 14, 2005 9:16:58 GMT 1
It's not acceptable in the normal run of things wildrover, but everything for a purpose. Laura's a devoted granny and she feels in her particular circumstances that she needed to do some work on this, so fair enough. I know we're all on about horses accidentally kicking us if something unexpected happens while we're in a vulnerable situation, but in my experience that doesn't necessarily happen. I'm thinking of an incident when I was by a fence with two of my horses close to me having a "quality moment". I think they/me or someone must have been touching the mains electric fence when someone switched it on. I should have been flattened, but apparently I'm told they both pivoted on their hindlegs away from me before setting off bucking and farting. If they're very scared they don't always make allowances for you, bit I think often they do. I've had a horse leap sideways and land on my foot spooking from a wild carrier bag - but she was blind on my side and I don't think she'd realised I was there as I hadn't touched her. Re what the farrier said about the quiet ones. There are quiet horses and then there are quiet horses. The really quiet ones aren't storing up trouble. The other quiet ones might be. A lot of people don't recognise an introverted horse because they look quiet, but it's very different. They stand rock still, sometimes even closing their eyes or dropping their head, but what they are doing is shutting out what is going on around them. They are the dangerous ones because just one more thing happens and it breaks through that barrier and they explode. Once you start looking out for this it's not to hard to spot them.
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Post by Yann on Dec 14, 2005 10:06:54 GMT 1
Clearly you won't, and I've not suggested at any point that it's a great idea, just that it's something I sometimes do without undue concern, with my own horse. Trust is something that's built up over a long period, and it's a two way street. You can't expect your horse to trust you if you don't trust it too. Wildrover, do you have a horse of your own?
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Post by Val (Toons&co) on Dec 14, 2005 10:29:26 GMT 1
About going under a horse's belly... I wouldn't because all of mine are belly fly chasers but I knew a girl who would crawl under her horse's belly to clean his sheath - now I thought THAT was a bit mad (facing the back legs and all) but as far as I know, she never had a problem!
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Post by Francis Burton on Dec 14, 2005 11:16:06 GMT 1
I do not believe crawling under a horse's belly is anything but an insane thing to do. Calling it insane is a little ott, in my opinion - just as my calling eventing insane would be.
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Post by jor on Dec 14, 2005 13:33:15 GMT 1
I havent heard Yann say that everyone SHOULD go under thier horses bellies. Personally I dont have a huge problem with an adult doing what they feel safe doing with thier horse. AlthoughI dont go under my ponies bellies I could if I wanted to without anymore fear of being hurt than I would if I walked round thier back end or under thier necks.
I do also believe horses, even when frightened do try to avoid a person they trust and look to as a passive leader. however horses are less likely to be concerned when frightened about a dominant/aggressive person. I was half flattened in the field by one of my 2yr olds by accident when the dominant mare swing round and kicked out at her, she spun, knocking me into the fence, she twisted and then jumped over me to avoid standing/landing on me, although I say I was very lucky I think that she would have done anything she could not to have landed on me.
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laura
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Post by laura on Dec 14, 2005 18:20:55 GMT 1
oh dear ............ insane again ;D ;D ;D well I guess it joins all the other "insane" things I do with Taz ..... ........ like drive in an open bitless bridle cover her with a tarpaulin let my grandaughter cuddle her loose in the field crack long whips aound her etc ............. I am glad I did the under the belly work with our horses ...... because one day one of the children did try to brush under Bonneys belly by crouching down under her .... done in the three seconds it took me to turn to pick up a mane comb. Of course one should never take ones eyes off children ..... but ask any parent here ... majority of them have had at least one of "those moments" when one second child with you and next is doing something else ... and the something else is dangerous !!!!!! I agree that you would not find any professional advocating going under a horses belly ( expect maybe the cossack riders who actually do that at a gallop !!!!!!!!)...... and agree that in many many circumstances it is a very dangerous thing to do. I would certainly not do it with any horse I did not have a very good relationship with ........... and I am not telling anyone else they should do it. I am glad I did it ! everything I do with Taz .... even some of the "tricks" we do ....... has a benefit for everyday life - accepting that in general I wish to ride / drive with her around town and country and not worry about other humans doing "scary" things that would worry her. you are right Kas , I am a devoted grandmother and want my grandchildren to be as safe as possible around horses, respectful of them and most of all ... enjoying themselves. So knowing my own horses I have prepared ( I hope) them for every forseen eventuality. That of course will not prevent something unexpected happening ..... but if it does happen the horses are far less likely to react in flight mode because they have learnt through experience that things I do, and ask them to do, that at first frighten them .... do not harm them. I think if you threw a stick / ball around most horses they would flee ..... or at least jump a bit. Ours just ignore them. Even when, as today, the stick I threw for my dog hit the barn with a heck of a clatter......... Bonney was stood about three feet from the point of impact and all she did was lift her head to look in the direction of the noise.... and not that far up from her hay ;D This sort of work pays dividends in other circumstances too .......... a few years ago I had the misfortune while out riding downhill for my saddle to end up by Taz's ears and me on the ground in front of her ...... all she did was stand and wait for me to get up and remove it !!!!!!!!!! ( That would have been an entirely different outcome for the first two years of our relationship ) I agree with Kas in that often, even when frightened, some horses will try and avoid making contact with humans even when afraid ..... I was with Taz in the stable and shooting was taking place ..... something she was used to .... but then one shot hit the barn !!!!!!! Taz jumped and actually twisted in the air to avoid landing one me. Yes I know this could also be used as an example of one of those circumstances where even the steadiest of horses can jump ..... but the point is she avoided me ............. and I think that she would do the same in any similar situation. I return to the point that EVERYTHING we do involving our horses can go wrong and someone can get hurt ....... if we want to avoid all risk then we should give our horses away . I too Francis see no point in going at top speed around the countryside jumping HUGE fences ,,,,,,,,,,, it frightenes me BUT I realise than out hacking we sometimes come across obstacles we have to jump to get past ...... so have made myself do some ...... preparing for the unplanned I risk assess every day and Taz is not perfect ( far from it ;D) ... if she wants left alone ( we all feel like that sometimes ;D ) then she is left alone. The grandchildren have also from an early age taught to look at horses body language to see if they are "happy" or not ....... only if horse is "happy" do we approach and do things. interesting thread ;D
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Post by wildrover on Dec 14, 2005 19:57:53 GMT 1
Yes - a horse will always try to avoid stamping on or hurting a human - any human, not just their owners. However when a horse is in flight mode, though it will still try to avoid stamping on a human, it is more concerned about its own safety. I would not not not not not not NOT crawl under a horses belly, unless I were in a particular situation or accident in which it seemed the safest route.
Frances, your comparison between eventing and crawling under a belly is not really a valid one. One is a regulated sport with rules etc, though some agree it is not a safe sport. The other is a perfectly avoidable situation where, should there be an accident or spook, someone underneath that belly could get very seriously injured.
Yann - whether I own a horse or not is imaterial to the point. I have created bonds ( I think ) with horses - but that does not make it safe to crawl under the belly. And I have known quiet horses, very quiet horses, and not ones that are quiet 'but waiting for the moment to pounce', I mean genuinely quiet horses. Still dont make it safe to crawl under their belly.
For the record Kas, I had similar experience with a horse in a stable - big Cleavland bay mare - very quiet etc (genuine) and one day as I was rugging up, a paper bag blew in through the door. Mares head shot up, danced and spun around - all in the matter of a few seconds. I was not injured or anything, just pushed to one side, and afterwards horse went back to being her usual calm self. Under the belly is not the place to be when that happens.
Laura - I would not nearly be so audacious to suggest to you how you should handle your horses. I rather expect you and most others on this board have considerably more knowledge and wisdom of horses than I could ever hope to have. Equally, I expect most people on this board have much more proficient riding skills than I shall ever acquire. However, I always want to learn and to improve - hence why I would have riding lessons. My goal each time I ride, is to ride with more finesse and stillness than the previous time.
Likewise with safety, there are many things that make handling and riding horses a risk activity. You reduce that risk by taking sensible precautions and learning by the experience of your own and others.
To suggest that crawling under a horses belly, though not the thing to do, is kinda ok, if you know the horse etc.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong ..................... in a word!
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laura
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Post by laura on Dec 14, 2005 20:35:49 GMT 1
ah well wildrover .. you obvioulsy never will go under a horses belly ;D ...... and that is your choice. mmmm getting a little mixed up though re your response to me .......... I know you are not telling me how to handle my horses but you did call my actions insane ;D ;D and now wrong !!!! and since I do not know even whether you have a horse or not, how old you or are your riding skills I cannot set myself up as knowing more than you ? I myself am certainly not a great rider ..... far from it !!!! one thing did strike me though ( and it is NOT intended as a criticism) is that you talk about riding lessons and aiming ever time to improve your RIDING ........... It seems that therein MIGHT be a difference ......... I like to consider myself a horse person first and foremost (not saying you dont !!!!) ..... a rider / driver comes a far second !!!! I know I spend far far longer being around the horses loose in field or yard than I do "formally working" with them. If you do not have a horse of your own then your chance to do this is very limited ..... aslo if you are paying for riding lessons then that is the obvious priority .... or if paying for stable management lessons then the formal stuff with regard to health and safety will be priority... especially if studying for exams. However there are lots situations where the safety advice we are all taught is altered by us dealing with individual circumstances. ...... I was always taught that one should never ride out alone - if there was an accident one would not be found . OMG how many of us go out alone and dont even tell anyone where we will be going Of course it is ideal to always have company but it is not always practicable. I could give more examples but family getting hungry ..... not had tea yet !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by wildrover on Dec 14, 2005 20:53:37 GMT 1
Laura - not necessarily suggesting all your actions are 'insane'. I am saying crawling under a horses belly is an insane thing to do, be it you, Yann, Frances or the bloke in the corner house at the end of Crooked Lane. Wrong, if you like. Incorrect ... not healthy .... use any words you so like.
Riding is only one part of horsemanship ... I want to improve mine. Handling is another part of horsemanship ... I want to improve mine. Understanding health and behaviour is another part of horsemanship .. I want to improve mine.
Never done the driving thing .... never done side saddle ........... etc. Not intending to so not particularly looking to improve mine.
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laura
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Post by laura on Dec 14, 2005 21:52:10 GMT 1
ok lets just agree that we think slightly differently then ... dont want to fall out or appear to be taking anything personally. Like Kas I do my "own thing" and am always prepared to share my reasoning on open forum. I have read many things on this forum that have made me think about things over the years ... and change my minds too sometimes .....we might at times have to "think outside the box" ...and the views i held 10, 20, 30 years ago are certainly not the same as now . ;D ;D
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Post by wildrover on Dec 14, 2005 21:55:15 GMT 1
Glad you seen it my way in the end .............
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laura
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Post by laura on Dec 14, 2005 22:00:51 GMT 1
did I I meant in the past I have changed my mind ;D I think I said we should agree to think differently on this occasion
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Post by Yann on Dec 14, 2005 22:05:47 GMT 1
I can't say I have, it's always slightly unwise to make sweeping statements. I'm neither (by inference) stupid or insane, nor is my horse.
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Post by wildrover on Dec 14, 2005 22:09:26 GMT 1
Aint no sweeping statement ........... it just aint the thing to do ............ under any horse.
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Post by Francis Burton on Dec 15, 2005 11:38:47 GMT 1
Frances, your comparison between eventing and crawling under a belly is not really a valid one. One is a regulated sport with rules etc, though some agree it is not a safe sport. Is it a safe sport or not - what do you think? The other is a perfectly avoidable situation where, should there be an accident or spook, someone underneath that belly could get very seriously injured. I'm sorry, but the comparison is valid. Both activities are risky; neither is necessary. Would you agree with that? Furthermore, people choose to engage in these potentially dangerous activities based on their assessment of the risks versus the benefits likely to accrue (be they personal pleasure, furthering the training of the horse, or whatever). Is jumping huge fences also avoidable? Of course it is, assuming people have free choice over whether to go eventing or not. In my view, the fact that it is a regulated sport with rules is neither here nor there! What does being a regulated sport have to do with the avoidability of accidents? It is surely safer not to do either eventing or belly-crawling. On safety grounds, I don't advocate either. But people can do either if they so choose. In my opinion, branding them insane is way too harsh. I would not nearly be so audacious to suggest to you how you should handle your horses. Well, that's something at least! ;D I guess we'll just have to accept that, in the end, we won't all see things the same way (not a bad thing really!)
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